Li Kim: Hi Beng Kooi.

Beng Kooi: Hello Li Kim.

Li Kim: I’m Li Kim and I would like to introduce you to Ooi Beng Kooi who has been a student of His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche for about how long now?

Beng Kooi: Coming on 11 years now.

Li Kim: Okay. Beng Kooi works closely with His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche and I think for this session here we will refer to Rinpoche lovingly as just ‘Rinpoche’. I understand that you work very closely with Rinpoche and you hold many positions in Kechara and you are devoted to the work that Rinpoche does.

I am very interested and I think many people are as well. On Rinpoche’s blog dated April 30th 2018, Rinpoche wrote an open letter, an appeal to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Of course the letter’s on the blog. I think from the perspective of one of Rinpoche’s assistants who works closely with him, what do you think is the sentiment of Rinpoche when he wrote that letter?

Beng Kooi: Well Li Kim, for those who follow Rinpoche’s blog closely, they will see that for about two, three years now Rinpoche has been consistently writing, speaking, recording videos and giving teachings about Dorje Shugden. And more specifically, also addressing the injustice, the discrimination and the segregation that Dorje Shugden practitioners face.

So this open letter is not the first appeal that Rinpoche has made to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. There have been others over the past couple of years. But perhaps this is the first time that Rinpoche has so directly, yet extremely respectfully, addressed His Holiness in this manner. And the objective of that is to lift the ban or reduce the discrimination, the segregation that Shugden practitioners all over the world face.

Li Kim: When I read it, the appeal to His Holiness the Dalai Lama was very clear and very direct to heal the divide among the Tibetan people, especially the Dorje Shugden practitioners and the non-Dorje Shugden practitioners. So many letters have been written to the Dalai Lama what, since 1996?

Beng Kooi: Yes. The first I think, the original ones probably came from the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi, which was the first Shugden society ever established. And yes, they did send in many letters of appeal to His Holiness, to the Indian government and, if I’m not mistaken, to many other international societies around the world appealing for an end to the discrimination that they faced. Unfortunately, those letters were not particularly successful.

Others have also attempted through many other different approaches, different channels. There have been peaceful demonstrations held around the world in the West, in Europe, as well as in America.

Li Kim: Following the Dalai Lama when he does his teachings worldwide.

Beng Kooi: Yes, there have been a series of those. There was also a court case in the Indian courts taken against His Holiness in an attempt to use Indian law to end the discrimination against Dorje Shugden practitioners. That was a number of years ago as well.

Li Kim: There is something that I think many people perhaps ask and maybe you can shed some light. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is one of the teachers of Rinpoche. And obviously by keeping his choice of practising Dorje Shugden, he is on opposite sides of the Dalai Lama. But yet Rinpoche has never once spoken harshly or badly against the Dalai Lama. In fact he still holds the Dalai Lama in such high regard. How does His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche balance this? It’s obvious that the Dalai Lama says, “No, you cannot practise.” And given all the resolutions, you know, against this, how does Tsem Rinpoche manage this? It must be emotional.

Beng Kooi: It’s very difficult. Rinpoche finds himself in a difficult position, kind of like between a rock and a hard place. In 1979 in Washington, New Jersey, Rinpoche received teachings on the Eight Verses of Mind Transformation as well as the oral transmission of the Mani mantra, Om Mani Padme Hum, from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. And since young, Rinpoche has always had a natural respect, devotion to His Holiness even before meeting him. And that continues till today.

So it is without a doubt that Rinpoche has tremendous devotion for His Holiness. But at the same time, His Holiness is not Rinpoche’s root guru. Rinpoche’s root guru is His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche whom Rinpoche met in Los Angeles and from whom Rinpoche has received many, many teachings, initiations, transmissions, including the practice of Dorje Shugden and sogtae, which is loosely translated as ‘life entrustment’. So in essence, that is a commitment that Rinpoche has made to his root guru, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, which he cannot break.

So there are two things at play here. One is that there is a specific commitment that has been made to his root guru to uphold this practice. And so, by the principles of guru devotion which are foundational in Tibetan Buddhism especially, one cannot go against the promises or commitments that one has made. And that’s understood by everyone including His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

So what you have here is a situation whereby His Holiness has given advice that people should refrain from the practice of Dorje Shugden for a number of reasons which I’ll not go into right now, there are too many.

Li Kim: And it would start a whole new discussion.

Beng Kooi: Yes. And at the same time His Holiness has said that those who choose to maintain their practice of Shugden despite his advice should not attend any of his secular or spiritual talks. So what Rinpoche has chosen to do is to definitely keep up his practice to which he has made a very strong commitment already, and as closely as possible follow His Holiness’s advice. And Rinpoche does not attend any of His Holiness’s talks although he very much wishes to.

Li Kim: I know. In the open letter, the part that made me want to cry was when Rinpoche wrote to the Dalai Lama and said that many people miss attending the Dalai Lama’s teachings and seeing the Dalai Lama. And then Rinpoche wrote, “I know I do.” You know, and he misses it so much.

Beng Kooi: Oh yes. There’s a common misconception out there that those who practise Dorje Shugden are against His Holiness but that’s absolutely not true. And in Rinpoche’s case, definitely not. I’ve heard in private audiences, non-public events, Rinpoche has expressed himself many, many times how much he genuinely misses His Holiness. And the one thing he would like very much is to heal this divide that separates Shugden and anti-Shugden practitioners. It’s quite an unfortunate situation.

Li Kim: Yes.

Beng Kooi: One more thing I would like to add actually, is that Rinpoche has 16 gurus and the majority of them actually practised Dorje Shugden.
Li Kim: In fact when, I think if I’m not mistaken, when Rinpoche met His Holiness the Dalai Lama for the first time, the Dalai Lama himself was still practising Dorje Shugden.

Beng Kooi: Oh yes.

Li Kim: Why write it now? And is there a higher chance now that perhaps the Dalai Lama will do something?

Beng Kooi: Well, it’s interesting you ask that. Rinpoche wrote the letter in April, on April 30th. And the month of April has seen many interesting events happening in the international scene. We have North and South Korea.

Li Kim: Yes, that’s pretty amazing.

Beng Kooi: Yes. And we have what looks like the beginnings of an improved relationship, or improving relationship, between India and China. And we also see His Holiness expressing fairly consistently since about, since last year actually, since November last year or so that he would like very much to return to China. And His Holiness has even sent his personal emissary on a private visit to China, possibly to have talks on how His Holiness and the Tibetan people can return. And most recently on April 25th, His Holiness has for the first time acknowledged the Chinese-recognised Panchen Lama Gyaltsen Norbu as the official Panchen Lama.

So there seems to be this general tone of reconciliation. There seems to be a trend of His Holiness wanting to heal the divide between himself, the Tibetan people and the people of China. And so it is as good a time as any, really, for Rinpoche to make this impassioned appeal to His Holiness. Because what many people don’t understand is that His Holiness is the ultimate spiritual authority for most Tibetans, perhaps even all Tibetans. And in 1996 when the ban first began, it was on the words of a single person which is His Holiness. So it goes to reason that only His Holiness can lift the ban, if you like, or completely remove the discrimination that Shugden practitioners currently face, by just making an announcement, by just addressing his people to say that, “Dorje Shugden practice is okay.”

Li Kim: Yes.

Beng Kooi: “And we don’t need to do anything about it. Let’s bring the Tibetan people together.” And this is what Rinpoche would really like.

Li Kim: Similarly like how His Holiness at the airport just says that, “He’s the official Panchen Lama.” Just one simple statement has already, more or less, kind of resolved one issue.

Beng Kooi: Well, perhaps not resolved it entirely but it’s definitely a good beginning.

Li Kim: An opening to a solution rather than further conflict. Can you explain deeper why His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche would put himself out there with regards to this whole Dorje Shugden issue? Isn’t he kind of exposing himself to be criticised, ridiculed just like how other Dorje Shugden practitioners are discriminated against?

Beng Kooi: Yes, definitely Rinpoche has faced more than his fair share of attacks, criticism, threats and all that. If you go online, you’ll see what people are saying, the vulgarities and all that. You’ll see that.

Li Kim: The name-calling and everything.

Beng Kooi: Oh yes. But I think why Rinpoche does this, Rinpoche’s purpose is very, very clear. Apart from what I’ve said before about Rinpoche wanting to heal this divide between the Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners, Rinpoche has a bigger purpose in mind as well. Where we are today with the current situation, any Dorje Shugden practitioner is automatically thought of in negative terms, whether it is as demon worshippers or…

Li Kim: Chinese dogs, Chinese spies.

Beng Kooi: Chinese dogs, Chinese spies.

Li Kim: Yes.

Beng Kooi: As misguided.

Li Kim: Ignorant.

Beng Kooi: Ignorant and so on. These mistaken accusations follow Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world. And more importantly, it also affects the good name of the Dorje Shugden lamas, for example the reincarnation of His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who was the junior tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. So his current reincarnation lives in Vermont in Trijang Buddhist Institute. There are many others as well, for example His Eminence Domo Geshe Rinpoche, His Eminence Zemey Rinpoche. I mean, I could go on. There are many, many Dorje Shugden lamas out there in the world.

And the thing is, Dorje Shugden is actually a relatively minor practice. He is a Dharma Protector and his function and his purpose is to guide and protect practitioners along their spiritual path. But the main practice of Tibetan Buddhism is really to practise mind transformation, to practise the Lamrim, to practise the higher teachings like Yamataka, Vajrayogini, Guhyasamaja and so on.

So these lineage lamas who also happen to practise Dorje Shugden have tremendous knowledge to give to students and followers, have tremendous benefits to bring to the world. But unfortunately due to the situation, the Dorje Shugden situation, they are not able to.

Li Kim: Yes.

Beng Kooi: So Rinpoche has taken it upon himself to clear the name of Dorje Shugden, and in the process clearing the name of what we now term as Dorje Shugden lamas, who are actually just high lamas.

Li Kim: Yes.

Beng Kooi: So that they can fulfill the purpose for which they took rebirth which is to benefit…

Li Kim: Many, many…

Beng Kooi: Many, many, many people. So that’s really what Rinpoche is here to do. And Rinpoche is at the perfect age to do so. Many of the reincarnated lamas whom I mentioned, they’re still…

Li Kim: Young.

Beng Kooi: Young. They’re finishing up their education. The senior lamas, many of them have already passed on. And so Rinpoche is really at the perfect age and has been exposed to the traditions of both East and West, fully understands the Tibetan psyche, has lived in the monasteries, understands how Tibetans as well as non-Tibetans think, and can speak fluently in English, in Tibetan, and therefore is perfectly positioned, I would say, to do this.

Li Kim: I think what you’ve shared will give more light to many people in terms of how Rinpoche thinks and the bigger picture that he sees. Thank you for that.

Beng Kooi: What I’ve also been told by friends in Tibetan society is that many young Tibetans as well as older Tibetans have been listening to Rinpoche’s talks, going on tsemrinpoche.com which is where many of Rinpoche’s thoughts are published as well as the thoughts of his students. And many have written in or said – anonymously, most of the time – that these teachings really help them understand what is going on. And it gives them hope…

Li Kim: And comfort…

Beng Kooi: And comfort. For those who have suffered tremendously over the last 22 years since the ban began, they find comfort that someone is speaking out for them. For those who have been confused, they find that they begin to understand what is happening and not just listen to what…

Li Kim: Propaganda is out there.


Beng Kooi: Yes.

Li Kim: One-sided…

Beng Kooi: But to really examine what’s going on. And then, through logic and facts, think for themselves what’s right and what’s wrong, if you like.

Li Kim: Like you said, you know, Rinpoche is at the perfect age and position where his methods of delivering messages and having people think logically, and making sound decisions or wise decisions, he appeals to both the young and the older generations. He kind of fills this gap.

Beng Kooi: Yes. And what people say as well is that they really appreciate how Rinpoche is extremely respectful to His Holiness and I think that’s something any Tibetan can identify with. And so it’s also very encouraging for us, the students of Kechara, to hear that what we are doing is having some effect out there.

Li Kim: Not just some. I think a lot of effect. I think that many people out there, there are millions of viewers and visitors to Rinpoche’s blog, so I don’t think it’s a little effect. I think it’s pretty substantial. And the work of His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche does and indeed reaches out to many, many people giving them understanding, giving them comfort and sometimes humour.

Beng Kooi: Definitely.

Li Kim: Yes. Alright, thank you very much for your time.

Beng Kooi: You’re welcome. It was a pleasure.

Close transcript

Li Kim: Hi I’m Li Kim. Today I have with me Pastor Khong Jean Ai and Mr Martin Chow. We are going to talk to you about a very interesting video taken as the Dalai Lama arrived at Kangra Airport in Dharamsala on April 25th, 2018 which happened to coincide with the 29th birthday of the 11th Panchen Lama Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, as recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

In this video you will see and hear the Dalai Lama recognise for the first time the Chinese-recognised Panchen Lama Gyaltsen Norbu as the official Panchen Lama. Before we go further into the significance and importance of this video, Martin would you like to share a bit of the background of the Panchen Lama?

Martin: Sure Li Kim. The Panchen Lama commands a very prominent position in the minds of the Tibetan people and indeed Tibetan Buddhism. The Panchen Lama is widely regarded as being the emanation of the Buddha Amitabha, just like the Dalai Lama is recognised as being the emanation of the Buddha of Compassion, Chenrezig. In that sense, both are Buddhas and therefore the Panchen Lama is the spiritual equal of the Dalai Lama.

The lineage of the Panchen Lama began in the 17th century with a teacher of the 5th Dalai Lama. Now what is important to remember is that when the Dalai Lama escaped Tibet in 1959, the Panchen Lama – then the 10th Panchen Lama – chose to remain behind in Tibet because he realised that the Tibetan people who could not escape and who were forced to remain in Tibet would be without a leader. So he chose to remain in Tibet so that he could be of comfort to the minds of the Tibetan people who were going under tremendous stress at the time. And being in Tibet also meant that he could be of help directly to the Tibetan people.

Now it is very well known that the 10th Panchen Lama suffered tremendously and even spent some time in prison. But over time, he was able to win the confidence of the Chinese government and in that way, he was able to create better conditions for the Tibetan people. And then along the way too, he was able to help revive Tibetan Buddhism slowly.

So you see, the Panchen Lama is actually a very important position in Tibetan Buddhism and the Panchen Lama to the people in Tibet and China is what the Dalai Lama is to the people or to the Tibetans in exile. What is also significant about the Panchen Lama is that the Panchen Lamas are responsible for recognising the Dalai Lamas and vice versa. So, in the absence of the Dalai Lama, this is a very, very important position.

Li Kim: Right, so to put it quite simply, the Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama are of equal significance among the Tibetan Buddhist community. Now that we’ve understood a little bit about the role of the Panchen Lama, how about Pastor Jean Ai you elaborate further on this controversy that surrounds the Panchen Lama role?

Pastor Jean Ai: The controversy that you’re referring to centres on the fact that there are two Panchen Lama candidates, one that was recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Gedhun Choekyi Nyima. And after this young boy was recognised in May of 1995, he subsequently disappeared a few days later and for the last 22 years, his whereabouts have remained unknown. Some maintain that he has been under house arrest, others say that he has been killed.

The other candidate was recognised by China using traditional methods as well as the Chinese leadership’s independent methods. His name is Gyaltsen Norbu and he was recognised and enthroned in November of 1995.

So this year, when the Dalai Lama made his statements in this particular video, it was done on the 29th birthday of the Dalai Lama’s candidate Gedhun Choekyi Nyima. And to this day, the boy, as I mentioned, his whereabouts have remained unknown and the pro-Tibet groups maintain that he is the world’s youngest political prisoner.

The pro-Tibet groups have also used this entire controversy to vilify the Chinese government, to make them look bad for violating human rights. But what the Dalai Lama has said in his video actually is a change in stance because all along His Holiness has also maintained – staunchly maintained – that the Panchen Lama candidate he recognised is the real one and the one that was recognised by China is fake.

Li Kim: Right. I guess the next question, or relevant question, to ask you is looking at the video taken on April 25th, what are the significant key points that this video highlights?

Pastor Jean Ai: The first significant key point is His Holiness the Dalai Lama saying that the Panchen Lama candidate he recognised is alive and well and receiving a good education. What is significant about this is His Holiness also added that he received this information from reliable sources so he believes it.

The second thing that His Holiness also said, which was very significant in the video, was referring to the Chinese-backed Panchen Lama as the official Panchen Lama. And His Holiness also added that this Panchen Lama is receiving a good education from a good teacher, therefore validating and legitimising the education that he is currently receiving.

Now, His Holiness also threw in into the video a third point which maybe not many people may have picked up on, and what His Holiness actually did was refer to an example of a lama who lived over a century ago, Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo. And the Dalai Lama referred to Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo as an example of how an incarnation of a lama may have more than one emanation existing at the same time.

So Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, after he passed away, his subsequent reincarnation actually had five emanations which were the body, speech, mind, quality and activity emanations. And these five emanations were Dzongsar Khyentse, the 1st Palpung (Beru) Khyentse Rinpoche, Dzogchen Khyentse, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro. And of these five emanations, it is the mind emanation that will then ascend to the seat of that particular lineage.

Now what is interesting about the five emanations I’ve just mentioned is that the last one, Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, after he passed away, his subsequent incarnation also had three emanations at the same time. So it is not just within the Gelug tradition or with the Panchen Lamas that a lama’s incarnation can have more than one emanation existing at the same time. The Dalai Lama was not asked about this in his video, in the interview, but he chose to throw it in anyway.

Li Kim: It was a significant point to throw in and I’m sure that normal journalists who are just covering news would not pick up on this. I think you would require a deep sense of spiritual knowledge in order to pick up the significance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama bringing up this point. Martin, would you like to add to the significance of this video?

Martin: Yes. You see, it also means that the Central Tibetan Administration, the Tibetan Government-in-Exile known as the CTA, has been wrong for over 20 years about this issue, that they did not consider the possibility that there could be more than one emanation. And this is the government that is supposed to look after all matters to do with Tibetan Buddhism and have been advised by monks of different lineages.

For the last 20-plus years, they have maintained that the Chinese Panchen Lama is a fake Panchen Lama. And not only that, the CTA website Tibet.net is littered with a lot of literature and articles that criticise the Chinese Panchen Lama and basically ridicule China for having recognised the false Panchen Lama.

And not only have the CTA maintained that, they have rallied leaders, people, corporations and different nations behind this accusation. And they all now look quite foolish, frankly, because as the Dalai Lama has confirmed, the Chinese Panchen Lama is equally as legitimate as the candidate the Dalai Lama recognised back in 1995, that there can be more than one Panchen Lama.

Li Kim: Pastor Jean Ai, in the history of Tibetan Buddhism, I think that the 11th Panchen Lama’s role now having indication that there are two emanations, I think that in the past, in history too, that not only this role has many emanations. I think there are more that have several emanations?

Pastor Jean Ai: You’re right. Actually it concerns his immediate predecessor which is the previous 10th Panchen Lama. And it’s very well known that when the search was on for the reincarnation of the 9th Panchen Lama, that two boys were actually identified and recognised as the reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama. But only the mind emanation, or the principal emanation, ascended to occupy the throne of the Panchen Lama.

So in the end both boys were recognised as reincarnations of the 9th Panchen Lama. One ascended to the throne of the 10th Panchen Lama whilst the other one was recognised as Panchen Otrul or “emanation of Panchen”.

And there’s a little anecdote that our teacher His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche has shared with us before, also concerning His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama and it centres on a teaching. So His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama was in a teaching once and he started laughing for no apparent reason. There was no joke being told, nothing funny was being done, no one was doing anything funny and the Panchen Lama just started laughing. So when people asked him, “Why are you laughing? What’s so funny?” His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama said, “Oh, one of my emanations somewhere else is doing something funny.”

So you can see that within the Panchen Lama lineage that there are also various, further examples whereby more than one emanation of that particular incarnation was existing at the same time. And it’s not just scripturally or within Tibet’s history that you see this incident of more than one emanation existing at the same time. Even Hollywood has picked up on this phenomena and in Bernardo Bertolucci’s film “Little Buddha”, the title character Lama Dorje, after he passes away, his subsequent incarnation actually comes back as three emanations: body, speech and mind.

And what’s interesting about this film as well, is that Bernardo Bertolucci, he hired as an advisor to the film one of the Khyentse incarnations, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche who was an advisor to the film to make sure that it was philosophically and historically accurate. So you see it within pop culture, you see it within “ancient” times, you see it within more modern times that there are multiple examples over different lineages, in different situations whereby these incarnations can come back as multiple emanations.

Li Kim: Therefore, it is not uncommon.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes.

Li Kim: Which means that now with the Dalai Lama recognising the Chinese-recognised Panchen Lama as well as the one recognised by His Holiness himself, is not uncommon and therefore it would be very believable and should not have any more further dispute, yes?

Okay, one thing I’m quite curious about, Martin, is if you watch the video, nobody asked the Dalai Lama any question, any clarification. Nobody said, “So who’s the real Panchen Lama, Dalai Lama?” Nobody did. Yet, the Dalai Lama took the opportunity and brought this up himself. So, and I think that in itself is what’s making this video groundbreaking news, you know, shaking up the Tibetan and the Tibetan Buddhist community. What is the meaning there?

Martin: Well Li Kim, that is a very good observation. Now there are a few views that one can take with regard to this situation. We can say, which is a very simplistic view, that the Dalai Lama made a mistake in 1995 and recognised the wrong candidate which the Dalai Lama is now correcting. But that’s just way too simplistic.

Another very mundane view says that the Dalai Lama is simply saying whatever is necessary and taking whatever actions he needs to, to appease the Chinese government so that he can go home.

There is a third possibility and we have to remember that the Dalai Lama is not an ordinary person. He is, after all, a statesperson who has, for the last 60 years, been able to keep the Tibetan cause afloat without an army, without financial might and even without a country. And yet he’s been able to muster such tremendous support for his struggle and for the struggle of the Tibetan people.

We have to also remember that the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig, or rather the emanation of the Buddha of Compassion, Chenrezig. And in Tibetan Buddhism, there is this concept called ‘skillful means’ which means something or an action undertaken by a very highly-attained lama or enlightened mind which appears to be harmful or wrong at the beginning, but ultimately creates tremendous benefits for the people and for Tibetan Buddhism.

And I think this is what it is – that in 1995, the Dalai Lama recognised one candidate, one reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama. We’ve already seen that there can be more than one reincarnation and it is not an unusual phenomena.

So in recognising and appearing to announce prematurely his candidate for the 11th Panchen Lama, the Dalai Lama actually created a situation where the Chinese government would then go out and look for the reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama, to throw their support behind this candidate, to develop and to build and to really rebuild the institution of the Panchen Lama in the embodiment of the 11th Panchen Lama. And in so doing, because the Panchen Lama does not exist in a vacuum, what the Dalai Lama actually managed to do was to get the Chinese government to rebuild Tibetan Buddhism along with it. And it is an extremely skillful way of doing that.

Li Kim: It’s like, how I would summarise it is like, a divine intervention for a much bigger cause that, perhaps, a layperson could not see.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes.

Li Kim: So and obviously now it is materialising and with the assistance of both of you putting this video into a much deeper context, people can now start to see the significance of what the Dalai Lama did.

So, understanding all this – skillful means, multiple emanations and the Dalai Lama on television recognising the Chinese-recognised Panchen Lama, all this wraps up to something huge and significant. So where do you see this forward movement in terms of the Tibetan community and the Tibetan Buddhist community as well?

Pastor Jean Ai: Well, I think what is important is to take this video and put it into the context of what is happening in the wider Tibetan community at the moment. And what we’re seeing now is that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is making an increasing number of overtures towards the Chinese leadership and talking much, much more about going back to Tibet.

The first example we saw was in the form of sending his personal emissary and personal representative, Samdhong Rinpoche, to China. It was a secret trip and presumably when he negotiated something with the Chinese leadership. This trip was confirmed by Samdhong Rinpoche’s counterpart, the Prime Minister of the Tibetan people Lobsang Sangay as well as a number of Indian diplomats.

The second form of overture that we’re seeing now towards the Chinese leadership is the fact that His Holiness has changed his political goals from one of rangzen which is total independence, to now one which is umaylam which is meaningful autonomy but under the rule of China. So even there His Holiness is making concessions in terms of the political goals of the Tibetan exiled community.

In the case of this video related to the Panchen Lama, when His Holiness actually recognises the Chinese-backed Panchen Lama as the official one, he is actually removing a thorn, a very large thorn, that has been in the side of the Chinese leadership for the last 22 years. Because this Panchen Lama controversy has been one of the pro-Tibet group’s largest campaigns and one that they’ve used very, very commonly and very often to vilify the Chinese leadership.

Now what I want to do is draw back on something that Martin had said earlier, and that’s regarding the symbiotic relationship between the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama where both lamas recognise one another’s incarnations. What you’re seeing now in the present situation is, well, what we’re left with is this – on the one hand, you have the Tibetans in exile who have no Panchen Lama in order to recognise the 15th Dalai Lama. And on the other hand, you’ve got China who has a Panchen Lama candidate who will be able to recognise the 15th Dalai Lama.

In this case, the Tibetan leadership in exile have no means, or no method or way of recognising a 15th Dalai Lama candidate according to the traditional system where they will need a Panchen Lama candidate to do so. In this situation actually, there are many ramifications, the first of which is that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has actually begun the process of legitimising whoever China selects as the 15th Dalai Lama.

The second one is that the Tibetans in exile are now left without a leader once His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama passes away, a leader whom they would need to spearhead whatever political campaigns that they have. And if they press ahead with the recognition of their own 15th Dalai Lama candidate without a Panchen Lama to kind of legitimise this candidate, the whole recognition process is going to be one of confusion and a lot of discussion and debate and argument.

The third ramification is therefore, that His Holiness is in essence giving up the Tibetans in exile’s future and pushing it further and further under Chinese control. At the moment what we’re seeing is that China now actually has both Panchen Lama candidates under them, both the Dalai Lama-recognised candidate as well as their own.

And the fourth ramification is that it’s very disheartening for pro-Tibet groups to listen and hear what His Holiness has actually said in his video regarding the Panchen Lama. Because they’ve spent the last…well, over two decades campaigning very strongly and throwing a lot of resources and raising a lot of awareness to try and so-called “free” their Panchen Lama candidate, free him from house arrest. Now that the Dalai Lama has said that his Panchen Lama candidate is alive and well and he’s receiving a good education, in essence there is no more such campaign anymore.

Li Kim: He has basically nullified 22 years of campaigning about how wrong the Chinese are in dealing with the Panchen Lama recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Pastor Jean Ai: Removed one of the means by which the pro-Tibet groups have used to make China look bad.

Li Kim: So, in light of all these ramifications, it would look as though the future 15th Dalai Lama would be in the hands of the Chinese as well.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes.

Li Kim: And if the current Tibetan government does not, how do I say, find ways to reconcile with China, to reach out and find positive means to get things working with them, we’re going to have a big group of Tibetans outside of Tibet, China living without a leader and probably ending up going everywhere else. And then the Tibetan community further, shall we say, disintegrates into small pockets of…

Pastor Jean Ai: Scatters

Li Kim: Scatters. Yes, ‘scatters’ would be a better word than ‘disintegrate’. It is quite troubling, if we understand deeply, what will happen to the future of the Tibetans.

So Pastor Jean Ai, after you have highlighted the four ramifications of His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s actions with the Panchen Lama, it might even lead us to start thinking, what else could be happening here? Given the fact, what Martin had said earlier, that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not any ordinary person and that there are skillful ways in the actions he takes, so I’m starting to ask if this perhaps is also another form of a skillful way, whereby perhaps the Dalai Lama could be paving the way to return to China gradually but surely. Is that a possibility?

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes, that’s certainly a possibility. It may be that His Holiness, who actually sadly is losing quite a lot of influence and popularity on a global level, is now making a final play to return to Tibet before he no longer has much influence in this relationship between China and India that we’re seeing is growing and that we’re seeing is becoming more positive.

Li Kim: Right, I think everything is a possibility when you take into account the powers of the divine and how they interact and how things will play out. So, talking about how things will play out, where do you see this huge development with the recognition of the Chinese Panchen Lama going? How do you see this impacting the Dorje Shugden issue?

Pastor Jean Ai: So Li Kim, how I see this impacting the Shugden community is that the Dalai Lama has softened his stance on many things over the last few years, most recently now with the Panchen Lama issue. Now with the Panchen Lama issue, it affects all Tibetans because it concerns Tibet’s second highest lama. And therefore, for the Shugden community, what we are thinking is that if His Holiness can reverse his hardline stance on the Chinese Panchen Lama and accept him as the official Panchen Lama, there is a possibility and it brings hope to the fact that His Holiness may also similarly reverse his stance on the Shugden ban.

Martin: I would like to add to Pastor Jean Ai’s point, if I may. Both the Panchen Lama’s case and the Dorje Shugden issue have a very close similarity. In both cases, you see that there’s a pattern of the Dalai Lama first creating what seems to be a controversy. So, in 1995 when the Dalai Lama created what I would refer to as the Panchen controversy, it resulted in China investing heavily in promoting the institution of the Panchen Lama which has since been revived. And in that way, Tibetan Buddhism was revived in China.

Now in the same way, the Dalai Lama created a controversy surrounding the Dorje Shugden issue. As a result, the name ‘Dorje Shugden’ spread everywhere. In fact wherever the Dalai Lama went in the world, the name ‘Dorje Shugden’ would follow. And when people research and look into who this Dorje Shugden is, then this is how they become connected with the deity. So you see this very skilful pattern that the Dalai Lama first created what seemed to be controversies but both resulted in the tremendous spread of Tibetan Buddhism.

Now, perhaps the Dalai Lama has seen how Tibetan Buddhism has been revived in China and so it is time now, with this recent announcement, to put an end to the Panchen Lama controversy. Similarly, perhaps it is time for the Dalai Lama to also put an end to the Dorje Shugden controversy because after all, the Dorje Shugden lineage has in fact spread very, very much in the last two decades.

And after all, it doesn’t make sense for the Dalai Lama to now say the Chinese Panchen Lama is the correct one, is the main emanation, is the official Panchen Lama and then go on to say that this emanation of Amitabha, however, is a demon practitioner. It doesn’t make sense to say, “This is the right Panchen Lama, but he is wrong in his practice of Dorje Shugden”. So probably it is high time for the Dalai Lama to reverse his stance on the Dorje Shugden issue which has created tremendous problems and suffering for a lot of people around the world.

Li Kim: Thank you Martin and of course Pastor Jean Ai. The both of you have jointly given us a much deeper understanding to this video taken on April 25th, 2018 and the significance of what the Dalai Lama did in that video, what he said. The actions of the Dalai Lama with regards to recognising the Chinese Panchen Lama is huge. It’s tremendously significant. I think we have not even begun to grasp the magnitude of his actions.

Ladies and gentlemen, after what was shared here by Martin and Pastor Jean Ai, it is our wish to shed more light and depth into this video, into what His Holiness the Dalai Lama did by recognising the Chinese Panchen Lama as the official Panchen Lama. What does that all mean? Maybe the true meaning and essence may not materialise immediately, but we hope that what has been shared here will facilitate your understanding of it.

The Tibetan community is plagued by division. Lots of infighting. You have rangzen versus umaylam. You have Lobsang Sangay versus Penpa Tsering. You have U-tsangpas versus Khampas, this Karmapa versus that Karmapa, and of course Dorje Shugden versus non-Dorje Shugden. Till what end will there be more things to be disharmonious about? There is enough suffering in the world and I don’t think that the Tibetan community needs to add on more.

With the actions of the Dalai Lama now, the Tibetan people and, more importantly, the Tibetan government needs to have a look at the true essence of unity, harmony and the true essence of practising what the Dalai Lama preaches which is compassion. End the divides and start with ending the Dorje Shugden ban. If today the Dalai Lama can reverse his stand on the Chinese Panchen Lama, similarly and instantaneously he can do the same with the ban. And on that note, I thank you for watching and may all Dorje Shugden practitioners pray for that to happen.

Close transcript

Li Kim: Hi, I’m Li Kim. And today I have with me three friends, Choong, Pastor David and Abby. What we’re going to talk about is interesting. It’s basically the state of Tibetan affairs. So let’s see, the Dalai Lama fled Tibet in 1959 and since then he’s been championing the cause of a “Free Tibet” which I understand as China to return Tibet to him, back to him and his government, right? 59 years later, we haven’t seen…I mean there is progress but maybe not about that cause. They’re not close to getting back Tibet, and things aren’t as rosy as everyone would like it to be. So, I think it’d be a good time now for us to kind of like talk about what’s going now in Tibet, what’s happening with the Tibetans and what it looks like for the future.

Choong: Yes, things have certainly changed from when the Dalai Lama fled Tibet in 1959. It looks like when he first fled Tibet to India, and I think it was President Nehru who welcomed him to India at that time, the reason for India and the Western countries receiving him in a very friendly way…

Li Kim: Open arms, kinda like…

Choong: Open arms, welcoming him and in later years making him like the icon of peace, compassion, human rights, was because, if you remember, the Western countries were fighting against communists back then. So in supporting the Dalai Lama, in welcoming him, in making him an icon, the West was actually indirectly having this war of words, war of…

Li Kim: War of words? Okay…

Choong: War of words, war of image, that they were holding a higher moral ground compared with China or even Russia at that point in time.

Li Kim: Okay so, you’re saying that taking a higher moral ground, they used… I mean, for lack of a better word, right? They used the Dalai Lama as the, what did you say? Icon, mascot?

Choong: Icon, victim.

Li Kim: Victim. Okay, so that they all kind of look good championing him. But the thing is, I don’t think anyone sent in any…

Abby: Troops?

Li Kim: Troops to help, like, “Come, let us work with you. Let’s take back your land from China.” I don’t think so. Why is that?

Pastor David: That’s because, it’s very simple. That time, especially prior to the takeover…

Li Kim: Don’t you like the word ‘invasion’?

Choong: Invasion (laughter)

Li Kim: So hostile.

Pastor David: So what happened was before that, Tibet was relatively a hermit country, kingdom ruled by the Dalai Lama and so they had hardly any international relations with any countries. So when the takeover came, invasion whatever it is you would call it…

Li Kim: When they lost their land.

Pastor David: Exactly. So when they asked for help, no one came to their aid, unfortunately. They didn’t see that there was a need or they didn’t know much about Tibet. It was this mysterious place. So what happened was nobody came. So in the end, what happened was the Dalai Lama himself had to flee Tibet to exile into India. From there, he started his campaign to free Tibet which, from the start, it was easy because he had, as Choong had mentioned, his moral high ground and he had the world supporting him, especially the Western countries, the free world as they say, against communism. So there was some kind of a background, a backdrop of moral support.

Li Kim: So he was kind of like…so what the both of you are saying is, they used the situation with China taking over Tibet and this monk having to run and hide, so to speak, so they used that situation to kind of poke at China for being…what? Lack of human rights?

Choong: Yes. Remember, also during that same decade, what was happening in Southeast Asia was that America was involved first in the Viet Nam war and then in the Korean war. So they were too busy, they didn’t have resources to spread around. You know, the circumstances at that point in time, like Pastor David said, Tibet had no prior…

Li Kim: Exposure.

Choong: Exposure or diplomatic relations so it was very difficult for anyone to justify stepping in militarily into Tibet.

Li Kim: What did you just say?

Choong: Militarily.

Pastor David: Militarily.

Li Kim: Oh, didn’t send in the troops. Militarily. Okay, so what’s the situation now though? I mean what’s happening? You have Tibetans in exile and then you have those who remained in Tibet, China. So what’s happening with the Tibetans these days?

Pastor David: Okay, 59 years down the road, let’s look within the Tibetan settlements in India because when they entered into India, they formed some settlements, land that was given by the Indian government for them to reside. And what happened was, in the beginning it was good in the sense that the Dalai Lama was able to travel and made a name for himself because he was kind of like the champion of “Free Tibet”. But things have changed since then. So within the Tibetan communities, in the beginning, a lot of Tibetans were escaping across the border, but that seems to have trickled down in recent years. Trickled down means getting less and less.

Choong: But before that, Pastor David, I’m a money man.

Li Kim: Really?

Choong: Well, I was, I’ve retired. So one point I would like to make is that, say in the last 30 years since the Dalai Lama fled Tibet, it was very easy for them to raise…

Li Kim: 59 years.

Choong: Well, the first 30 years, maybe 40 years, it was very easy for them to raise funds. They played the victim card. Holding moral high ground, it was very easy for them to raise funds and they did because they set up lots of organisations globally in the rich countries, which were very successful in raising funds for the Tibetans in exile and these are not…

Li Kim: In supporting the Tibetan cause at that time.

Choong: That’s correct. Not only from private citizens but also from governments. So they were very well-funded for the first 40, 50 years.

Li Kim: So the people did, shall we say, enjoy a period of settling down in the new place, security, safety, even stability for a while.

Abby: I want to add to what Pastor David said. Actually the Central Tibetan Administration’s spokesperson, his name is Sonam Norbu Dakpo, he confirms that there are fewer Tibetans coming into India from Tibet. So it’s because China is, how to say… the Tibetan situation in China is getting better. So less and less Tibetans travel to India because last time, they wanted to travel to India because they were seeking for a better life but now fewer Tibetans are coming into India. This is confirmed by the Central Tibetan Administration itself.

Li Kim: So let me get this straight. 59 years later, there are less people wanting to leave Tibet, China to India.

Abby: Yes.

Li Kim: And to the contrary, you have them actually leaving India to go elsewhere.

Abby: Yes

Li Kim: Why is that? I mean conditions, have they deteriorated since the time when you said it was better? How?

Choong: Yes. One of the factors is the status of the land where the settlements are located. Because in 1959 when they moved to India, India was very kind to allocate land to them but these were for a 99-year lease. And if you do the math, it is now…

Li Kim: It’s quite a short time left…

Choong: It’s now maybe 30 years left? So I would be worried about that if the land you are actually on is so uncertain moving forward.

Li Kim: And I think also they have maintained refugee status. They didn’t become Indian citizens. I mean, not all became Indian citizens. Does that have a play on opportunities and employment or career opportunities? Does that give them less of a benefit or advantage because of their situation?

Pastor David: You brought up a very good point. Within the Tibetan community, they have been hoping to return to Tibet for such a long time. So the situation has deteriorated quite badly in the sense that a lot of people have given up hope. So they have always been in the mode where they are refugees and they are championing this. It’s almost…59 years is probably about two generations perhaps?

Li Kim: It’s a long time.

Pastor David: And it’s a very long time to maintain this hope.

Li Kim: So what you’re saying is that they didn’t opt to become Indian citizens because they wanted to maintain their refugee status because in their heads, in their hearts, they were going home.

Pastor David: That’s right.

Li Kim: So whatever arrangement was very temporary.

Choong: Yes. For many, many years, there was actually great hope to return to Tibet. If I’m not mistaken, right up till the 1980s whereby there was actually Nechung, you know…the state oracle took trance and Nechung basically indicated that within five years, the Tibetans in exile will actually return to Tibet, China.

Li Kim: Which would have made it 1990, 1991.

Choong: By 1990, yes. So can you imagine, from 1959 right up to 1990, no one did anything to better themselves or to plant themselves more solidly in India or even becoming Indian citizens.

Abby: So that’s why we can see that Amchok Rinpoche, who is the previous personal biographer of the Dalai Lama and also a confidante of the Dalai Lama, returned to Tibet in 2016 and he took up Chinese citizenship. So even a person so close to the Dalai Lama also lost hope and so you can see that he returned to Tibet and even took up Chinese citizenship. And this says a lot about how great the disappointment and hopelessness is, [that] most of the Tibetans are [feeling].

Choong: Without Indian citizenship, the Tibetans in India cannot work for Indian organisations or outside their settlement.

Li Kim: They don’t have an equal opportunity kind of thing so they kind of just have to stay confined within their settlements.

Choong: That’s right.

Li Kim: And what kind of jobs would…I mean I’ve visited. Without sounding insulting, they sell sweaters, arts and crafts, things like that.

Pastor David: Because of the government policies, the Tibetan government in exile’s (CTA) policies, they’re basically on the verge…they’re always planning to return to Tibet actually. They’ve never encouraged much human development within the community, so unemployment is extremely high. As a result, for the young, next generation of Tibetans coming out, a lot of them…not that there’s anything wrong with sweater sellers but that’s the norm. And then a lot of…a host of social issues comes out of this.

Li Kim: So you actually have a deterioration of standards of living?

Pastor David: Yes.

Li Kim: So if you’re saying that unemployment is high, then the next thing that we can assume is that children are also probably not going to school or maybe there are more school dropouts or less opportunities to go to school, or something like that?

Choong: Well the present-day situation is such because when they first expanded, settled down in India, the schools and all that, and monasteries were catering to an influx of Tibetans which has now dried up. And in fact, the Tibetans in India themselves…

Abby: …are leaving India. Yes. Because you can see in one article posted on the Hindustan Times on 5th April, it says that the Central Tibetan Administration themselves…

Li Kim: 5th April this year, 2018?

Abby: Yes. They confirm the trend that many Tibetans are leaving India and migrating to the West. And now, actually, there are more Tibetans choosing to go back to Tibet. So again, the government itself is admitting this kind of trend.

Choong: So today, you see empty schools.

Li Kim: Not because there are no schools provided but there’s no population to attend.

Choong: That’s right.

Li Kim: Right, right.

Pastor David: There are people leaving and no new Tibetans are coming from China, Tibet.

Li Kim: This will also affect monasteries. That means there’s also no new people joining the monasteries.

Choong: It’s the same for monasteries. In fact, from what we know, the enrolment in monasteries consists of more and more Nepali and also…

Abby: Ladakhis.

Pastor David: Indians.

Choong: Indians. Those from Northern India.

Li Kim: So if that’s the situation and also sadly, we also read a lot of news with the Dalai Lama not being as welcome as he used to be before…

Abby: Yes, that’s true.

Li Kim: I think there have been some incidences where his visits were turned down.

Abby: For the most recent case, I think the French President Mr. Macron said that to meet the Dalai Lama without consulting the Beijing government will trigger a crisis with their China relationship. So it’s quite a serious thing to meet the Dalai Lama. And in 2017 which is last year, the Australian Prime Minister Mr. Turnbull also said that he’d decided not to meet the Dalai Lama. And many more countries like Taiwan also barred the Dalai Lama from entering the island in 2012. Also Mongolia has the same thing, right?

Choong: Yes, I remember the Mongolian episode.

Li Kim: Oh yes. I heard it was quite bad.

Choong: Because Mongolia had this financial crisis because they’d spent too much money investing during the boom years of the minerals. And when prices came down, they were saddled with a huge amount of debt. And China actually came to help because China has lots of money, I presume.

Li Kim: Such strong statements.

Choong: But the funny thing is that after China came in to help them, they had the gall to actually allow His Holiness the Dalai Lama to visit Mongolia.

Li Kim: And I think Mongolia suffered a little bit of, shall we say, “scolding” or something. The Chinese did react and threatened to withdraw financial aid, right?

Choong: Yes, and because of that, today the Dalai Lama is actually not welcomed in Mongolia.

Abby: Since 2016. And he is not welcomed even for religious purposes. And we know that the Dalai Lama and Mongolia are very close. I think since many, many lifetimes, they are very close.

Li Kim: Also, you were mentioning this the other day. Even the support from the Indian government towards the Tibetan refugees is also declining.

Pastor David: Yes, that one is quite interesting because that’s a recent development earlier this year when the foreign secretary Vijay Gokhale issued a memo requesting the government officials to not attend a big Tibetan-Indian celebration called the “Thank you India” celebration.

Li Kim: Okay. That means the Tibetans were…

Choong: Thanking India for hosting them for almost 60 years.

Li Kim: So it was the Tibetan government organising an event to say “Thank you India”?

Abby: A huge event that was supposed to be hosted in a stadium that can fit 5600 people.

Li Kim: Wow

Pastor David: Yes, so it started from there because what happened was the event was stadium-wide.

Li Kim: Stadium-sized.

Pastor David: Stadium-sized event.

Li Kim: Meant for stadium-size.

Pastor David: In Delhi, New Delhi, the capital of India. But it was cancelled and relegated to Dharamsala where it was a much scaled-down event.

Li Kim: Oh dear.

Pastor David: Yes. So that was basically…

Li Kim: That’s a real slap in the face.

Pastor David: That was a snub, that was a big snub.

Li Kim: A big one.

Pastor David: So what happened was because of that, there were other reactions as well, other things that were cancelled. Aside from the “Thank you India” celebration, there was the Parliamentarian…

Choong: Yes, they had scheduled a World Parliamentarian meeting on Tibet some time in late April, April 25th if I’m not mistaken.

Li Kim: This year?

Choong: This year.

Li Kim: And when was the last one?

Choong: 1995. So it was going to be a big one because they haven’t had it for a very long time.

Li Kim: And even that was cancelled?

Choong: And that was cancelled too.

Abby: And the Tibetan Uprising Day, that protest also was cancelled in India as well as in Nepal. The Tibetan Uprising Day.

Li Kim: Hold on, let me…so many occasions. The Tibetan Uprising Day is not a protest day though. The original…

Pastor David: Actually it was a commemoration of when, during the Chinese time when they were still in China (Tibet), they surrounded the Summer Palace, Norbulingka, to protect the Dalai Lama. And it became a symbol of freedom for Tibet. And what happened was, usually on that day in recent years, it has been a day of protest.

Li Kim: Right.

Abby: Protest against China, yes.

Pastor David: Freedom for Tibet protest. So what happened was…

Li Kim: Which is protest against China. So politically correct he is.

Pastor David: So what happened was India had cancelled or does not allow any form of protest.

Choong: Nepal too.

Abby: Yes, as well as Nepal. The government is also doing the same thing. And there was one Tibetan man, he held a Tibetan flag and…

Li Kim: Where was it? In Nepal?

Abby: In Nepal. And then he took a picture and then he was arrested because of this. Because now Nepal and China are getting very close to each other because Nepal needs help from China. So Nepal definitely doesn’t want to offend China by allowing Tibetans to create issues in Nepal.

Choong: China today is not China in 1959, not China in 1970, not even 1980.

Li Kim: So what is China now?

Choong: China today stands shoulder to shoulder with the largest economies of the world like America.

Abby: That’s true.

Choong: So obviously, if you’re the big boy on the street, everyone needs to be friends with you.

Li Kim: They have financial strength and they also have the so-called population to give you the volume of consumption too.

Abby: For example Mercedes Benz, earlier this year, they had an advertisement and they quoted words from the Dalai Lama. And the Chinese people saw this and they got very angry because they said, “How can you support the Dalai Lama and quote his words?” So Mercedes Benz, because they want to secure their business in China, Mercedes Benz had to apologise to China. And not only Mercedes Benz, big companies like JW Marriott and GAP and all these, they also apologised to China because they listed Taiwan and Hong Kong as countries. So to China, Taiwan and Hong Kong are their territories. It’s not a country, it’s not an independent country. So this offended the Chinese also, and the Chinese people…it’s actually the netizens who are getting angry, it’s not even the government that’s angry. So they really want to secure the business in China and they apologised for this.

Li Kim: So they apologised.

Abby: Yes.

Pastor David: So there is the China issue, it’s huge, amounting to huge pressure; the problems within the Tibetan society, social politics or rather the Tibetan government and the issues that they have; and then there’s one more very big thing that plays on the Tibetan mentality within the settlements, that is the Dalai Lama himself because he is not young. You see, in Tibetan society the Dalai Lama is the king, or rather the sole refuge for the Tibetan people because that’s how they see the Dalai Lama. They see him as an emanation of Chenrezig, they see him as also a human being. And what happened is, he’s also the symbol of Tibetan freedom and he is aging. And because of that, a lot of people are fearful and it often evokes…because when the Dalai Lama, when there’s news about when he goes and sees the doctor, people are afraid.

Li Kim: So there’s a sense of insecurity that should anything happen to him, they are left without a leader to fight their cause.

Pastor David: Exactly.

Abby: Because the government itself is also having a lot of problems. I’m talking about the Central Tibetan Administration. I’ve heard that there are quite a lot of scandals. Maybe Choong can tell us a little bit.

Li Kim: You like money and you like scandals. C’mon.

Choong: They come together.

Li Kim: Yes, they come together, right? Money and sex are always the scandals.

Choong: Well, that too. Yes, scandals-wise it’s been a busy year. I think two things stand out as far as scandals are concerned. One is the emissary for the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Dhonden, was actually asked to resign. I’m not sure whether he was fired or not, it wasn’t very explicit but he stepped down from his position in some of the Dalai Lama’s organisations in America. And the reason for that was that people had been pointing out that as a monk, he shouldn’t be…

Li Kim: Engaged in inappropriate activities. I know you were dying to use the sex word, right? Alright.

Choong: So that’s one. There was also this scandal that was uncovered by Penpa Tsering who was the previous speaker of the Tibetan Parliament. He was, I think two years ago, appointed to be the Dalai Lama’s representative to North America. After he took his position in America, he was going through all the papers that they had and discovered that one of the financial transactions between the Office of Tibet and the Tibet Fund was not correct. What he saw was not correct because on paper, it was treated as a loan very clearly, but yet when the people in the Office of Tibet talked about it, they talk about it in terms of, actually, a grant. So he was the one who sort of blew the whistle on this.

Li Kim: What was the disturbing amount he blew, though?

Choong: 1.5 million US dollars which was used to buy an office.

Li Kim: That’s a lot of money to be confused between a loan and a grant.

Choong: Yes.

Li Kim: Wow.

Choong: And the accounts were actually audited so you can’t say that it’s this or that. It has to be one.

Li Kim: So what happened? Did he get fired?

Choong: He got fired by the present leadership of the CTA.

Li Kim: That’s not very nice.

Choong: And most recently, I’ve read that…

Li Kim: What are you, a stalker? He’s a scandal stalker.

Choong: I find all these things very interesting because it’s very pertinent if you are trying to forecast what’s going to happen next. And he has actually filed a lawsuit against the CTA.

Li Kim: Let’s see how that pans out. So you have a situation with China growing and things are not that great for the refugees in India. They are either going back to Tibet, China or they are leaving to go elsewhere like Switzerland, France, Canada and it’s quite scary. I mean the Tibetan people are really getting all scattered. And then of course, the recent news, which may even add on to the insecurity and fear onto the Tibetans in exile in India, is the reset between India and China. Who would like to…okay, between the two of you, I know one of you is dying to talk about it.

Choong: Yes, since Pastor David talked about the banning of “Thank you India”, it happened around the same time. So it’s no coincidence that it happened at the same time because for many years now, there has not been a very good relationship between India and China. But there was pressure for them to reset the relationship but it did not happen till recently and that coincided with the memo from the foreign secretary Gokhale.

Li Kim: It’s kind of pretty self-explanatory, you know? You start to repair relations with China, there’s no way there’s going to be much approval for Tibetan matters.

Choong: It really looks like the Indian government and the Chinese government have already made their decision to repair relationships and move forward, which resulted in the Prime Minister Modi’s visit to Kunming.

Abby: No, Wuhan.

Choong: Wuhan, to visit President Xi Jinping.

Li Kim: Yes, it was all covered in the news.

Pastor David: Actually on that note, there’s also something else to that effect which is there’s a growing resentment from the Indians themselves.

Li Kim: Okay, so we’re not on governments now, we’re just talking about the regular population. Okay.

Pastor David: That’s right. So in order to illustrate that, I’ll share with you what I experienced when I entered into a Tibetan settlement in India.

Li Kim: You mean, the Indian nationals are having a growing resentment towards the Tibetan refugees?

Pastor David: Yes. So what happened was when I was on the way to Bylakuppe, one of the Tibetan settlements in Southern India, outside of the settlement is what you’d expect from an Indian village where it was poor, it was rundown and, I mean, you expect that.

Li Kim: Poverty-stricken.

Pastor David: In a sense. But the moment you enter into the Tibetan settlements where it’s supposed to be a refugee place, right? The Tibetans are technically refugees, although that’s not what the Indian government calls them, but you don’t feel that. You don’t feel that. When I enter, I see houses with big compounds with high walls, I see satellite dishes on top of bungalow houses, I see good schools with gates with the names in Tibetan and English, Tibetan Children’s Village.

Li Kim: So you see money.

Pastor David: Yes, and well, the reason why I went to the Tibetan settlement was actually to visit the monasteries. And then when you enter the monastery, it’s gilded, it’s painted, there’s Buddha statues gilded in gold, big donation boxes. You see lots of monks, you see..

Li Kim: And they do receive quite a lot of donations from…

Pastor David: Within the Tibetan community…

Li Kim: And also overseas.

Pastor David: Yes. So this plays on the Indians because how come these Tibetans have leaped over the Indians, improved economically over the Indians throughout all these years? And they are supposed to be refugees. They don’t have rights, they don’t pay taxes, they don’t have a lot of the rights as of an Indian national. So this is what the Indians see. And then on top of that, there’s the reset of India-China relations. And of course, to a lot of Indians, what’s the stumbling block? The Tibetans, because this is the thorn in the side of China. So a lot of this plays into the Indian psychology and there has been backlash on the Internet, on social media as well as, what I have heard of is a recent protest in the state of Arunachal Pradesh last year, late last year 2017.

Li Kim: A protest against?

Pastor David: The Tibetans.

Li Kim: That means wanting them to leave?

Pastor David: They’re not happy with them being in India.

Li Kim: Oh dear.

Pastor David: That’s right. So they’re not happy with them being in India and receiving this sort of aid from being refugees.

Li Kim: So in light of everything that we’ve shared here, where’s the future?

Pastor David: That’s a very good question.

Li Kim: What is your opinion?

Pastor David: I see that’s why a lot of Tibetans have been losing hope and a sign of that is a lot of them are leaving. And they see also that the Tibetans are doing much better in China, Tibet. So a lot of them have been trying to get back into China, Tibet. A lot of them have also been trying to go to other countries. Some have naturalised as Indian citizens. A lot of them have gone to Nepal. But overall, I think the best in the interest of Tibetan culture, religion…


Li Kim: Yes, preserving culture, what else? Religion, language, tradition.

Pastor David: That’s right, would be to go back to Tibet.

Li Kim: Because I think at the rate they’re going, leaving and dispersing, can you imagine little, little pockets of Tibetan communities around the world? It’s not very united. I think people, a population should be together and I think that gives strength and unity.

Choong: It’s very practical to think that you know, as a Tibetan, actually China would be the best place to locate yourself because you have friends, relatives, you have connections, you also have the numbers and the ability to, like you said, keep your traditions, your culture, your language.

Li Kim: Your language, your religion.

Choong: Religion, all that comes with being Tibetan.

Li Kim: And I think if that happens and the Dalai Lama does return to Tibet, he can reconnect back with his people.

Abby: And the Dalai Lama does want to go back to Tibet and he has been saying this since, I think, many years back. Recently he’s said it more and more. And I think it is the best, like the two of them say, the best is to return to Tibet.

Choong: Recently, not only the Dalai Lama said it again and more emphatically, but he was actually echoed by the President of the CTA Lobsang Sangay, who quoted the three dreams that the Dalai Lama had. And the last one was being back in the Potala Palace.

Abby: And meeting the Tibetans there.

Choong: And meeting the Tibetans. So the President of the CTA actually talked about this a lot in the press recently.

Li Kim: But it’s going to take a lot more than just talk by the CTA, if they are going to honour the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I think that the CTA will have to stop all this nonsense against China, the things they say, what they do and tying in the Chinese spy thing with Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Choong: They have to unite the Tibetans, you know?

Li Kim: Yes, it’s just starting to look really, really ugly with more and more topics for divide. Hello? Why does China want to have anything to do with you if everything you do just divides, divides, divides and causes disharmony and discord. You know what I mean?

Abby: Like the Karmapa. Tibetans in India have three Karmapas. It’s very divisive.

Choong: You have three Karmapas, you have two Panchen Lamas.

Abby: Then you have the Dorje Shugden controversy. Again, they keep separating the Tibetans. And the regionalism also.

Li Kim: Oh yes, and the rangzen versus…

Choong: Umaylam.

Li Kim: And the rangzen versus umaylam thing.

Abby: Regionalism is also one thing. The Amdowas don’t like the Khampas, the U-tsangpas don’t like the Khampas, all these things.

Pastor David: It doesn’t matter what umaylam, rangzen, freedom or self-autonomy for Tibet. Their language has always been antagonistic against China so that must change.

Li Kim: Yes, that must change. Because who would welcome, I mean, who’s going to welcome somebody who’s going to bite your hand into your home? Right? It doesn’t make sense.

Choong: And in fact, His Holiness the Dalai Lama actually recently made sort of like an opening gesture, an opening statement if you like, because he actually acknowledged that, in a roundabout way, acknowledged that there are actually two emanations of the Panchen Lama, including the Chinese-appointed one.

Li Kim: And I think in that video, he did say that the Chinese-recognised Panchen Lama is the official Panchen Lama.

Abby: And he’s receiving a good education from a good teacher.

Li Kim: And that the other Panchen Lama recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama is well, and also receiving a good education.

Abby: A normal education.

Li Kim: Correct.

Choong: So the mending of the relationships between the Tibetans in exile and China has, to me, definitely started.

Li Kim: It has.

Choong: And led by His Holiness himself.

Li Kim: Correct.

Choong: So what are the rest of the Tibetans doing about it?

Li Kim: Correct, correct. I mean, they can’t let the Dalai Lama do all the work. The CTA has to back the Dalai Lama by behaving themselves. You know what I mean? I guess we all agree that to preserve the Tibetan people, culture, tradition, language, religion, that for now, given the fact that 59 years on, they’re not anywhere close to achieving their cause, maybe it’s time to review that cause. Change it with the times because obviously, 59 years later, things have changed. You can see North Korea and South Korea meeting, I mean whoever would’ve thought that? You have China and India looking to reset relations. And I think it’s also a time that maybe the CTA should look at healing the divides within the Tibetan people as well. And for us of course it’s always the Dorje Shugden issue. So I guess we all wish for His Holiness the Dalai Lama, for his wishes to come true. And may there be unity and harmony for the Tibetan people returning to Tibet to preserve, most of all, language, culture, tradition and religion. Thank you for watching and I hope you’ve enjoyed yourself like we have.

Abby: Thank you, Li Kim.

Pastor David: Thank you.

Close transcript

Li Kim: Hi, my name is Li Kim and I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner. I am sure many of you have heard many things that many people are talking about out there against the practice of Dorje Shugden and more, against the Dorje Shugden practitioners. Why? Where is the source? What information is there to prove and show that all these allegations set forth by the Tibetan government are true? Is Dorje Shugden an evil spirit? Is the practice bad? Ah, are Dorje Shugden practitioners Chinese spies? As ridiculous as all this sounds, it is still out there and many people are still talking about that.

So I think that we all practise the freedom of speech. Now we should practise the freedom of acquiring accurate, logical, reasonable information. So, it’s time to hear what other people have to say, what Dorje Shugden practitioners have to say. So stay with me and join me to hear and learn and acquire accurate information about what you should think about Dorje Shugden and his practitioners.

Interview with Lew Kwan Leng
Systems Architect
Director, vajrasecrets.com

Li Kim: If you don’t mind, I’d like to take a little bit of your time to ask you an important question. The people quote His Holiness the Dalai Lama as evidence that the Dorje Shugden practice is wrong. Would you like to share your thoughts on this?

Lew: Okay, when people quote the Dalai Lama saying this, they are referring to him as the secular leader of Tibet. Some even call him the King of Tibet. When he is regarded as the secular leader of Tibet, he is considered even higher than his Guru Trijang Rinpoche by rank. And whatever advice he gives people, it has a lot of effect because he’s the authority. However, we all know that the leaders of countries around the world, they do and they can make errors in judgement.

Let’s take as an example, the US President Donald Trump. Many people criticise him for making an error in judgement in his immigration and trade policies which have caused negative effects on many people. As such, the question is not whether Dorje Shugden is the correct or the wrong practice. But the question we should be asking is, can the Dalai Lama, as a secular leader, can he make an error in judgement when he advises people about the Dorje Shugden practice?

Li Kim: I think that’s a very interesting twist to the situation by raising this question, and I think it is a good question simply because we want to make people think and we want to make people look deeper into all these allegations made against the Dorje Shugden practice. Thank you so much for your time.

Interview with Pastor Lanse Chiah (M.D.)
Buddhist Pastor
Chinese Language Editor, tsemrinpoche.com

Li Kim: It is popular belief that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig. So if he says that the Dorje Shugden practice is wrong, then the Dalai Lama must be correct. What are your views on this?

Pastor Lanse: In a spiritual sense, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig, whereas His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is Vajrayogini. Both of them are Buddhas with the same attainments and who share the same mission of liberating us from our worldly sufferings. The Dalai Lama says Dorje Shugden is a worldly spirit, while Trijang Rinpoche says Dorje Shugden is the Buddha Manjushri. So if he says that Dorje Shugden is a spirit then we are saying that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who is one with Vajrayogini, is wrong. In other words, we’re saying that a Buddha is wrong. How can one Buddha be right yet another Buddha be wrong? It doesn’t make sense.

So in addition, the 5th Dalai Lama used to practise Dorje Shugden during his early age. Both the great 5th Dalai Lama and the young 14th Dalai Lama, who share the same mindstream with the current Dalai Lama, they used to write prayers for Dorje Shugden. So if we say that Dorje Shugden is wrong, then we are saying that the previous Dalai Lama could have made mistakes. So in this case, what other mistake did he make? And how do we draw a clear line?

So, it is either the Buddhas are all right or the Buddhas can make mistakes. If we say the Buddhas are right, then both His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche must be right too. But why do they appear to be in conflict with each other in their view of Dorje Shugden? If the Buddhas can’t make mistakes then perhaps the whole issue is not about Dorje Shugden anymore. During his time, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche predicted that in the future, both His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden might appear to be in conflict with each other but in actuality, they are working hand in hand to achieve a higher goal. So it must be us, the ordinary viewer who perceives the object wrongly due to our own attachment and projections.

Li Kim: Not to mention ignorance.

Pastor Lanse: Yes, exactly. A good example to explain how our perception deceives us is a very famous example of the young lady and old maid visual illusion. During the test, we showed a group of people a young lady’s photo and another group the photo of an old maid. Those who were shown pictures of the young lady will see the visual image, perceive the visual image as a young lady, while the other group who saw the picture of an old maid will perceive the picture as an old maid. Okay, so the truth is no one is wrong, it is a specially-designed artwork to explain how our mind perceives things.

Li Kim: So therefore Pastor Lanse, what you are saying now is that if a mind, and to make it worse, is ignorant and uninformed and naive, if a mind is constantly fed with a certain stimuli, may it be visual, audio or just information, it is a matter of time that the mind will start to understand and perceive this as real, as a fact, regardless of whether rubbish or non-facts are being fed in. The fact that it is constantly stimulating the mind, the mind will start to believe in it.

Pastor Lanse: Yes, exactly. It is how our minds work. So our perceptions are all dependent on how our sensory systems react or respond to environmental stimuli and how our brains interpret this information. So like what you said, if you can’t even figure out the trick behind the visual illusion, then how are we going to be so sure that our viewpoint on this Dorje Shugden issue is solid? And who are we to judge the activities of enlightened beings?

Li Kim: That’s an interesting view that you have and that how, given all the information that’s available especially now with the Internet, people don’t verify facts. People don’t do their necessary due diligence before they spread information. And it’s a good angle that you have shared, that will make people think more. To start actually asking ourselves, is the issue really just about Dorje Shugden or is it a play of the mind?

Interview with Beatrix Ooi
Content Executive, tsemrinpoche.com

Li Kim: People say that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit that can harm the life of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As a young practitioner, what are your views on this?

Beatrix: First of all, many people believe that His Holiness is Chenrezig or Kuan Yin, who is the Buddha of Compassion. Since he is Chenrezig, how can a Buddha possibly be harmed by Dorje Shugden or any evil spirit? The Buddhas do not have the karma to be harmed. If the Buddhas can be harmed, why do we even pray to them for protection, wish-fulfillment and peace of mind?

Based on what I’ve learned from Tsem Rinpoche’s teachings, the zen or what we call the long shawl of a monk, has the power to dispel spirits. By the power of the vows which one holds, no evil spirits can harm them. So technically speaking, we do not have to become a Buddha in order to be protected. The fact that His Holiness is a pure monk and has been holding his vows strictly should protect him from the harm of any evil spirit.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is 82 years old now and he is still extremely alert, healthy, very sharp and so eloquent. From what I know, for the past 20 years or so, His Holiness has been saying that the practice of Dorje Shugden shortens his life. I sometimes find myself wondering, if Dorje Shugden is so evil would His Holiness the Dalai Lama still be so healthy as the great King of Tibet and be able to travel around to teach? This brings me to believe that what people are saying about Dorje Shugden being an evil spirit and causing harm to His Holiness is not true.

Li Kim: Thank you very much for your time Beatrix and of course for a very clear point-of-view on your stand.

Interview with Pastor Niral Patel
Buddhist Pastor
Senior Writer, tsemrinpoche.com

Li Kim: People say that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and harms practitioners. As a Buddhist pastor, what is your perspective of this?

Pastor Niral: First off, let me say that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit that harms practitioners and I can actually explain this to you in two ways. First, from the point of the very principles of Buddhism itself and second, from the point-of-view of the enlightened masters. Now first, the very fundamental practice of Buddhism is actually taking refuge. Taking refuge in the Three Jewels, the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. So what is taking refuge? Taking refuge is having full and complete faith and reliance on the Three Jewels, and a benefit of that is being protected from spirit harm. So to say that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and can harm practitioners actually contradicts refuge which is supposed to grant you protection.

Secondly, if we are afflicted by spirit harm, we seek help from the enlightened masters such as His Holiness the Dalai Lama, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche and many others. And the reason we seek their help is because they have spiritual attainments, and part of those spiritual attainments is the ability to perform powerful exorcisms, cure spirit harm and provide protection. So to say that Dorje Shugden harms practitioners is actually to discredit the spiritual attainments of these very masters. So basically there would be no point in going to these spiritual masters for teachings, for guidance or for protection.

So therefore these are the two ways, if we say that Dorje Shugden harms practitioners, we actually contradict the fundamental principles of Buddhism itself and, at the same time, discredit the spiritual attainments of the masters that we seek out.

Li Kim: Thank you Pastor Niral for your explanation. So basically what you have said from your explanation is that all these allegations against Dorje Shugden practice and statements that say that he is an evil spirit and harms practitioners is basically nonsense.

Pastor Niral: Correct.

Li Kim: I like that very much, and I think that should clarify a lot for many people out there who are confused.

Interview with Abby Foo
Senior Chinese Translator, tsemrinpoche.com

Li Kim: People say that Dorje Shugden is a harmful demonic spirit. What are your thoughts?

Abby: This is not true and very illogical because Tibetan Buddhism is known to be the most powerful to subjugate evil spirits and demons. For example, Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) has subjugated a harmful evil spirit named Nechung and made him a protector that protects the Buddhadharma. And since then, Nechung has been a Tibetan Buddhist Dharma Protector for the past 1300 years, keeping his promise to Guru Rinpoche to protect the Buddhadharma. Also, contemporary high lamas like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Domo Geshe Rinpoche are also known to have the ability to subjugate evil spirits and demons. So it is proven, with time, that high lamas can indeed subjugate evil spirits and demons.

And we all know for a fact that since the 5th Dalai Lama’s time, there are many, many high lamas who have tried to subjugate the so-called Dorje Shugden evil spirit. But they failed. For example, Mindrolling Rinpoche, the famous Mindrolling Rinpoche, he did a series of powerful fire pujas to bind Dorje Shugden, but in the end he failed. Why is this? Are the high lamas incapable or incompetent to bind an evil spirit like Dorje Shugden, as they say he is? So this is not possible and we know this is not true. So this only leads to one conclusion that Dorje Shugden is not a harmful, evil spirit but he is a Buddha so he cannot be subdued. After all, if Dorje Shugden is such an evil, harmful spirit, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and other high lamas should just subdue him instead of keeping on talking about how scary he is, so that everyone can have peace of mind, but we know that this is not the case.

Li Kim: Thank you so much for your time. So from what you have said, it is clear that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit because he can’t be subdued.

Abby: Yes.

Li Kim: As such, he must be a Buddha. So I trust that what you’ve explained will clear many people’s minds of all these false allegations. Thank you again for your time.

Abby: Thank you.

Interview with Cindy Hew
Advocate & Solicitor
Writer, tsemrinpoche.com

Li Kim: People say that Dorje Shugden is a harmful demonic spirit. I wanted your opinion because, I’m not saying you’re old, but being more mature and therefore not so easily influenced and having studied the law, what is your perspective?

Cindy: I strongly disagree, just because it’s illogical. Another angle to look at this wrong view is why Dorje Shugden is being singled out. Assuming that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, which he is not, but hypothetically speaking, even if Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, he’s not the only evil spirit in existence.

Li Kim: That’s true.

Cindy: And we know that for a fact. Within the Buddhist cosmology, there are six realms, one of which is the hungry ghost realm. And in it, there are an infinite number of evil spirits. Further, Dorje Shugden is not even said to be the most harmful evil spirit around, so why pick on Dorje Shugden?

Hence there has to be another reason, a hidden agenda as to why the continuous attack on Dorje Shugden. After all, why kick up such a big fuss over a common ghostly phenomenon? Let me ask you this question. Why is Dorje Shugden clearly isolated and singled out by the Tibetan leadership to be condemned? Are those spiritual or political implications?

Li Kim: I think that’s a very good question, in fact very valid for people who wish to truly understand. And if you look at it spiritually, it is hard to believe that it is a spiritual reason. I think it’s more otherwise.

Cindy: Well, I believe there’s a political reason to it and why do I say that? Well, let me state the facts as how I see them. The Tibetan leadership has promised the Tibetans in exile the return to Tibet for decades now. But factually, it is obvious that they are nowhere near there. To make things worse, the Tibetans in exile are in dire straits and they are no better than how they were when they first arrived in India following the Dalai Lama into exile in 1959.

So, the Tibetan leadership have to explain themselves and they conveniently used Dorje Shugden as a scapegoat to cover up their failures to date. Why else would a so-called democratic leadership spend so much time and resources to unconstitutionally persecute a religious practice and criminalise its practitioners? Especially since every unsubstantiated allegation by the Tibetan leadership against Dorje Shugden has been logically debunked.

Li Kim: You have raised some very strong points and very valid in today’s time for people who are tired of what others are saying about Dorje Shugden and his practitioners. Asking whether there is another agenda is very valid, and to state the situation as it is today, where things aren’t great, and most of all promises have not been fulfilled. It’s really time to question, and I think you have raised some very good questions. For those of you who want to think more, consider what Cindy has asked. What is the agenda? What is this really about?

Interview with Pastor David Lai
Buddhist Pastor
Author and Senior Writer, tsemrinpoche.com

Li Kim: People are saying that the practice of Dorje Shugden will result in a negative rebirth. What are your views on this?

Pastor David: I disagree with this statement for the simple logical reason that in the past, there were many great high lamas who practised Dorje Shugden and also practitioners as well. Many of these high lamas have passed away and have taken rebirth and the thing is, they have taken a human rebirth. They have taken rebirth as the incarnations of their predecessors, so they have been recognised, especially by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I’ll give you an example, like His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and this is the junior tutor of the Dalai Lama himself and he had been a great, prolific teacher spreading the Sutra and Tantra teachings and especially Dorje Shugden. So he has taken rebirth, human rebirth and there are many others. For example there is Zong Rinpoche, there is the Panchen Lama, there is Geshe Rabten. All these are lamas who not only practised Dorje Shugden but they also proliferated the practice. So they have taken a human rebirth instead of negative rebirths.

Li Kim: So what you’re explaining here is that when, for example, high lamas reincarnate to a human form and then are further recognised as the reincarnations of their predecessors, that’s considered a positive rebirth.

Pastor David: That’s right.

Li Kim: And then, a negative rebirth would be for example?

Pastor David: There is what we call the three lower realms which is animal, hungry ghost and hell beings. So that’s a negative rebirth. But they have taken human rebirth so it totally defies the statement. And the interesting part about this is that these high lamas were recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama himself, the one who originated this statement that Dorje Shugden practice leads one to a negative rebirth.

So basically, based on what I’ve just said regarding all these high lamas, Dorje Shugden high lamas who have taken rebirth, their very presence as incarnations of their predecessors is living proof that defies the statement that Dorje Shugden leads to a negative rebirth. So it’s safe to have that conclusion that it’s not true.

Li Kim: Based on what you have explained from your view, this statement that says that Dorje Shugden, the practice of Dorje Shugden will lead to a negative rebirth is highly inaccurate.

Pastor David: That’s right.

Li Kim: Thank you very much for your time.

Interview with Pastor Antoinette Kass
Buddhist Pastor
Occupational Therapist

Li Kim: People say that Dorje Shugden practitioners are on China’s payroll to create problems for Tibet. What are your views on this?

Pastor Antoinette: This is not correct. Dorje Shugden people want to practise Dorje Shugden and they are not on China’s payroll and they do not want to create problems for Tibet for sure. So the practice of Dorje Shugden dates back to about 400 years. On the other hand, the issue with Tibet and China goes back only about 60 years. So there is no correlation between the Dorje Shugden practice and the problems with China for Tibet.

Then also, Dorje Shugden practitioners live all over the world and they for sure don’t want problems for Tibet. There are many high lamas who practise Dorje Shugden such as His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and do you want to say they are Chinese spies? I mean, it makes no sense at all.

For me personally, I have supported the Tibetan cause back in my country for a number of years. And I have supported the Tibetan Children’s Village. I was in the Friends of Tibet for several years. And after having received the Dorje Shugden practice some years ago, there’s no reason for me to change this, to change my views on Tibet and to stop my support towards Tibet and the Tibetan people.

Li Kim: From what you have shared, it is your opinion that these claims are nonsense. They are inaccurate. They are incorrect because people around the world, Tibetans around the world do not want to have these constant problems that are caused simply because of allegations made against Dorje Shugden practitioners. So you do not think that it is logical for Dorje Shugden practitioners to be any Chinese spy.

Pastor Antoinette: What I just want is, I want to do my practice freely. I don’t want to be called names on social media.

Li Kim: I believe ‘Chinese dog’ is very commonly used even…you know, obviously you’re not Chinese.

Pastor Antoinette: Yes, obviously.

Li Kim: Yet they can still use that on you.

Pastor Antoinette: Yes, they do.

Li Kim: That’s how, I guess, that is how illogical their thinking process is, the people who are making accusations against Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Pastor Antoinette: Yes, that’s right.

Li Kim: Thank you Pastor Antoinette for your time.

Pastor Antoinette: Thank you Li Kim.

Interview with Seow Choong Liang
Investment Banker
Researcher, tsemrinpoche.com

Li Kim: People are saying that Dorje Shugden practitioners are on China’s payroll to create problems for Tibet. What are your views on this?

Choong: Well, I think it’s very much a generalisation. You know, we read about all sorts of crime every day in the newspapers; murders, rapes, corporate crimes but certainly if you think about it, if murder happens in America and it’s reported, does that mean that all Americans are murderers? No. Obviously not. Similarly, if for example, if you hear of, say, a church leader embezzling funds from a church, that doesn’t mean all church leaders are embezzlers.

If you put that in context with Dorje Shugden and the Tibetans in general, I’m sure, you know, in the world today there are good people, there are bad people. If a Tibetan for example, for whatever personal reason, works in the interest of the Chinese, you cannot definitely say that all Tibetans work for the Chinese; it’s just illogical.

If you apply that to Dorje Shugden practitioners, as you said in your question – the same. Whereby if, for whatever personal reason, a Dorje Shugden practitioner receives some form of financial aid from the 1.3 billion Chinese…there must be some person that is generous enough to aid this particular Dorje Shugden practitioner, you cannot generalise the same for all Dorje Shugden practitioners. What the Tibetan leadership is doing now in generalising and calling all Dorje Shugden practitioners as “dogs of the Chinese”…

Li Kim: That’s right, actually “Chinese dogs” is very common.

Choong: Yes.

Li Kim: They use it very, very commonly against the Dorje Shugden practitioners, yes.

Choong: Correct, that’s right. And all of them, we’re all receiving financial aid, funds from China? That cannot be logical. That cannot be possible. So what I would like to say to your question is that personally also, I’m a Dorje Shugden practitioner as you know, and I can say for sure that I don’t receive any money from China. And I’m sure that is the same for many, many, many other Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Li Kim: Right. So basically, what I understand from what you have expressed is that people have a tendency to generalise. They see something happen and then they generalise and they make it like it’s the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And sometimes these generalisations are just baseless and there’s insufficient evidence to make such a generalisation. And similarly, there may be a small population of Tibetans who may receive funds or have financial connections with China and these Tibetans need not be Dorje Shugden practitioners, or they may be Dorje Shugden practitioners. So to generalise like what they have done now, to say that “All Dorje Shugden practitioners are on China’s payroll to make trouble for Tibet” is actually very, very inaccurate.

Choong: Yes. It makes them look stupid.

Li Kim: Thank you for your time and for sharing your thoughts with me.

Choong: Thank you Li Kim.

Interview with Wee Sock Wan
Business Analyst
Human Resource Manager, Kechara House

Li Kim: People say that Dorje Shugden practitioners are on China’s payroll to create trouble for Tibet. What are your views on this?

Sock Wan: I don’t really agree with this opinion. You see, by linking Dorje Shugden practitioners with China or the Chinese government, the Central Tibetan Administration or sometimes we call them the CTA, they are actually creating a distraction for what they have not done for the Tibetan people in exile for the past 60 years. They have been a very ineffective leadership so far.

Li Kim: That’s true.

Sock Wan: So, the way they talk about Dorje Shugden practitioners is baseless and really racist, the comments that they have made. This is so that they can stir up the adverse sentiments of the Tibetan people towards Dorje Shugden practitioners. It’s the only way they can hide what they have not done so far. By also saying that about Dorje Shugden practitioners, the CTA is not helping in any way by further inciting the antagonism between China and Tibet. So the wish of the Dalai Lama to become part of China as an autonomous region, they will not achieve this objective. so CTA is totally against what His Holiness wants to do. If the CTA genuinely wishes to solve the problem, they could have just removed the ban. By doing so, they could heal the divide between China and Tibet and also the division within the Tibetan community. And also then, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s wishes to return to China could materialise.

Li Kim: Okay, so you are of the view that all this talk about Dorje Shugden practitioners being on China’s payroll to create trouble for Tibet, is basically a smokescreen. A cover-up.

Sock Wan: Totally.

Li Kim: To distract people from realising how inefficient the CTA government has been.

Sock Wan: Yes.

Li Kim: I can see that. And also you feel that if there are so many complaints about these kinds of allegations about Dorje Shugden practitioners being on China’s payroll, what you think is just lift the ban.

Sock Wan: Yes, it’s as simple as that.

Li Kim: And the CTA actually has the authority to just lift the ban

Sock Wan: Correct.

Li Kim: So there will be no more problems to talk about.

Sock Wan: Yes, that’s correct.

Li Kim: So they created the problem so that they can talk about the problem, and then cover up the real problem which is their inefficiency.

Sock Wan: Yes. No one community stays as refugees for 60 years.

Li Kim: Correct.

Li Kim: Now that you have heard what many people say out there which is obviously nonsense, saying that Dorje Shugden practice is wrong, claiming that Dorje Shugden practitioners are paid by the Chinese to make trouble for the Tibetans, all these baseless accusations only prove how much discrimination there is against Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Tibetan government wants you to believe all these allegations. They have not made the effort to give you logic, reason, evidence even, to prove what they are claiming. Therefore, let me ask you: if these questions are out there, are in your head, where are you going to find your answers?

Are you going to the source where all these allegations started? It’s not the right way. You should go and explore and I hope that these videos that I have shared with you, of what other people have to say, will shed light, logic, reason and, most of all, compassion on your thoughts towards the practice of Dorje Shugden and of course Dorje Shugden practitioners.

This is the time to be united and harmonious, not to have further division. The Tibetan people do not need any more problems and the Tibetan government needs to recognise that. And so for all of us out there who may or may not be directly involved with the plight, the suffering of Tibetans, it is only important to be humane and understand it correctly. There is nothing wrong with the practice of Dorje Shugden, and most of all Dorje Shugden practitioners are not criminals, they are not Chinese spies. They are only people wanting to be free to practise what they believe. On that note, I thank you for listening. Most of all, I plead that you think logically and with reason and, most of all, with compassion.

Close transcript

Li Kim: Hi, I’m Li Kim. Today we’re going to talk to you about a sensitive yet widespread allegation. An allegation that states Dorje Shugden practitioners as Chinese spies. Together with me are Pastor Khong Jean Ai and Mr Martin Chow.

Before we proceed into the details of this topic, let me first talk to you about the Dorje Shugden ban. This is not any new news to anyone but let’s have a look at the basis of that ban. Since 1996, the ban was all about the practice of Dorje Shugden being bad for Tibet, that it would shorten the life of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and it is clearly stated in the resolution of 1996, the resolution of the Tibetan Parliament in Exile. There are many things they say here with regards to the practice of Shugden but I would like to highlight this. “We would like to clarify that if individual citizens propitiate Shugden, it will harm the common interest of Tibet, the life of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and strengthen the spirits that are against the religion.”

Now, so it makes it very clear what all this anti-Shugden sentiment is about. In 1997, the resolution continues to be against the Shugden practice. In addition they add, “The joint disinformation campaign of China and a small number of Shugden activists should be challenged within the framework of law.” And then again, “The Chinese government’s politically-motivated support to a handful of Shugden activists and their disinformation campaigns in Tibet and outside world should be challenged effectively.”

So therefore from 1996 to 1997, the ban which originally started because it harms the Dalai Lama and the cause of Tibet, suddenly within a year transformed to include China, to include saying that China is involved, therefore stating that Dorje Shugden practitioners are Chinese spies, Chinese funded. When a government’s resolution states this, it becomes fact. Name me a government who doesn’t put facts into their resolutions, that doesn’t put law into their resolutions.

So when people read this, what do they understand? “Ah, this must be fact.” “Oh, it is enforced so therefore it is law.” So what has happened? From writings like this, the media has reported and articles have been written globally to narrate, to say, to implicate, to state that Dorje Shugden practitioners are involved with the Chinese or the Chinese are funding the Dorje Shugden practitioners. Martin, how much of all this is true, especially coming out from the media?

Martin: Well Li Kim, in a word, none of it is true. Now, what we have here is a very good example of post truth and fake news which have become quite common. We keep hearing about that in the news recently. But in 1996, when this first came out, as you correctly said, a lot of people assumed that it was true, that the practice of Dorje Shugden would harm the Tibetan cause, would harm the life of the Dalai Lama and is in fact a political tool of the Chinese government.

Let’s start by understanding what post truth is. Post truth politics is this political culture where debates are framed based on an appeal to emotions which are disconnected from facts. Which means these are the debates that would arouse certain sentiments – anger, fear of the people – and in so doing, the purveyors of this post truth or fake news sidestep the need to show proof, evidence and factual documentation to back up what they say.

One good example of this is Brexit where in the UK, the people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the EU. Now, the post truth culture is such that it was said that the EU membership was costing the British people some 350 million pounds every week. And that was repeated over and over again to the point where the British people in fact voted to leave the EU membership. And it was only after the decision was made that they realised that they had no idea what they voted for.

Now, in very much the same way, this suggestion that Dorje Shugden people work for the Chinese, are traitors and are spying for China, is this CTA invention, a propaganda that has been allowed to circulate very, very freely. Now what is interesting is that in these 20 years when this allegation of Dorje Shugden people being Chinese spies has been spread very widely, it’s around the same time when the CTA has created a number of controversies, for example with the two Karmapas, with the rangzen versus umaylam debate, and also with the Panchen Lama issue, as to which is the real Panchen Lama. So together with these, accusations of Dorje Shugden people being Chinese spies have come together, and in that confusion, the Tibetan people forgot to ask, “What is the CTA doing to get them home and how has the CTA broken promises after promises for over 60 years?”

So it is a very sneaky way for the CTA to get people focusing on certain things charged with emotions. And it is very emotional because anything to do with China would strike a very, very sore point with the Tibetan people. And that was leveraged to the hilt in this accusation.

Li Kim: So, what you’re saying Martin, if I understand you, is that the Central Tibetan Administration in Dharamsala, North India is appealing to the emotions of the people and inciting emotional responses that nullify logical thinking.

Martin: Very much so.

Li Kim: That nullify the need to ask for evidence or facts.

Martin: Correct.

Li Kim: That’s actually pretty dangerous for a government.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes.

Li Kim: Pastor Jean Ai, earlier I mentioned how the Central Tibetan Administration in Dharamsala had amended or added to their resolution from 1996 to 1997. So my question here is, why was there a need to change justifications to ban a religion?

Pastor Jean Ai: Well, what you mentioned about the progression of the resolutions, Li Kim, is reflected in how the ban has actually progressed since it was first enforced in 1996 all the way up to the present time. In this you can see that multiple resolutions have actually been passed in the Tibetan Parliament in Exile, each one condemning Shugden practitioners but each one also progressively changing the content of each resolution.

You’ve seen multiple initiatives on the part of the Central Tibetan Administration who are the Tibetan leadership, to enforce and institutionalise the segregation and the discrimination that they direct towards Dorje Shugden practitioners. And throughout this entire last 20 to 22 years, the Central Tibetan Administration have actually changed their reasons for implementing the ban and to justify the ban. It’s changed many, many, many times. And each time they’ve presented a new reason for justifying the ban, it’s always been proven false.

So first they started by saying that His Holiness the Dalai Lama, his life would be shortened, his health would be harmed if people continue to practise Dorje Shugden. Well, in the present day, His Holiness is a very healthy 83-year-old and does not show signs of aging or slowing down. He’s bright, he’s alert, you know, much, much what many 83-year-olds would want to be health-wise.

Then the Tibetan leadership changed their reasoning for implementing the ban. They said that by continuing the practice of Dorje Shugden, you harm the Tibetan cause. Well, a lot of people have given up Dorje Shugden. The Tibetan leadership have been very successful in implementing the ban. And yet they are no closer today to making sure that their Tibetan people can go back to Tibet. So clearly, getting rid of the Dorje Shugden practice from the community has no bearing on whether the Tibetan leadership are successful in accomplishing their political goals or not.

So despite everything that the CTA have directed towards Shugden practitioners, even by 2008, many monasteries were still continuing to practise Dorje Shugden because they just did not see that there was any spiritual basis for banning the practice. And as a result, this led His Holiness the Dalai Lama to enforce even stronger sanctions against Shugden practitioners, going so far as to expel monks from the monasteries if they refused to give up their Shugden practice.

Then 2014, 2015, 2016. What you see is the Tibetan leadership releasing videos, publishing books, sponsoring publications all directed against Shugden practitioners. And all of them make mention of how Shugden practitioners have this so-called alleged link to the Chinese leadership. But I hate to tell you this, they’ve never produced a single shred of proof or evidence to back up their assertions.

Li Kim: Based on what you’re saying, the CTA – Central Tibetan Administration – is really putting a lot of effort to upkeep this Dorje Shugden ban.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes.

Li Kim: And to constantly fuel it.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes.

Li Kim: To constantly incite it, provoke it, to keep it alive, to keep up the hostility, to keep up the discrimination, which also results in violence and a lot of suffering for the Tibetan people. They spend a lot of time and effort doing this, in fact getting themselves even… you know, like you said, releasing videos, getting media coverage. It is a lot of effort to put into a cause to cover up the real thing which is their lack of efficiency, their broken promises. It’s pretty scary if you ask me.

Anyway, after Pastor Jean Ai has shared how this ban was developed and, shall we say, progressively enforced in India, I would like to know now how did this whole Chinese spy allegation get so blown out of proportion?

Martin: That’s a very good question, Li Kim. We have to remember that whilst news outside China is more easy to access, that what happens within China is a bit more difficult for people to read and understand. But when the Dalai Lama imposed this ban in 1996, we have to remember that the Dalai Lama wasn’t just a king. He was a god and a king to the Tibetan people. So whatever the Dalai Lama says is, in fact, law or has always been regarded by the Tibetan people to be law which they have to obey, both as a decree from a king and also as a spiritual instruction for someone who regards the Dalai Lama as a Buddha.

So with this, the instruction to stop and to make people stop the Dorje Shugden practice was carried into China, into the Tibet Autonomous Region. And what is interesting is a report by the Human Rights Watch 2004, and we have to bear in mind that this is not a document, these are not documents and research done by Dorje Shugden people or people who have any interest but…

Li Kim: Fully independent.

Martin: Very independent and in fact, it is slightly against China. But what is interesting is that it does document that there was a ban that the Dalai Lama imposed in 1996. And as I’ve just said, whatever the Dalai Lama says translates into law. So within Tibet, within the Tibet Autonomous Region, there was this split between people who chose to carry out the Dalai Lama’s instructions and the people who chose to carry on with the Dorje Shugden practice. Because we have to remember that it is a very ancient practice that has been passed down over many centuries and it’s not so easy to give up.

So what you have here is a situation where there was this division and unrest. And the Human Rights Watch report also documented that there were people strongly advocating the Dalai Lama’s stance on Dorje Shugden and they were preaching, they were taking steps to make the other people stop or to abandon the practice. All this translated into social unrest within the TAR – Tibet Autonomous Region – and a lot of communal disturbances, precisely what China fears the most. What China fears most is unrest like this that will spread to its border regions and then create a whole, huge mess for China. And by 2004, we already see that there’s considerable unrest because of the Dorje Shugden issue.

Now 10 years later, this has been brewing for a whole 10 years. So the Chinese government did what any government would do, which is to take steps to pacify the unrest and disturbances. Now to that end, the regional Chinese government put up some documentation, some literature to say that because the Dorje Shugden issue has become the source of unrest, it is now necessary for the Chinese government to address this issue as a matter of priority. Their objective as I mentioned before is to stop the unrest.

Li Kim: From growing to become a huge mess.

Martin: Precisely, because it’s just been brewing up over 10 years. Now we have to remember that all this is picking up from what Pastor Jean Ai has said, that from 1996 there has been this ongoing effort, escalating effort, on the part of the Central Tibetan Administration.

Li Kim: Very progressive.

Martin: Correct. To continuously inflame sentiments surrounding this issue. And that is played out in a bigger way in the Tibet Autonomous Region. So of course, the government stepped in to just say, “We have to put a stop to that.” This literature has been taken and misinterpreted on purpose by the Central Tibetan Administration as a smoking gun to say that the CCP, the Chinese government is behind this practice, which is quite ridiculous. We have to remember the Dorje Shugden practice began in the 17th Century, a long time before the Sino-Tibetan conflict.

Li Kim: Very long time.

Martin: And also, a very interesting point is that this accusation of Shugden people working for the Chinese only became common in around 2014, not before. So we have to remember that they didn’t start banning this practice because it was found that Shugden people were working for the Chinese government. It kind of like evolved into that because they ran out of other credible reasons. And it was a long time, a long time after the Dalai Lama imposed the ban before they decided, “Okay, we’ve got no more excuses so we’re just going to say something which we know is going to get the Tibetan people upset, going to get them angry. Something which we will not have to come out with any proof because it is such a highly charged issue.”

Pastor Jean Ai: Picking up on what Martin said, 2014 is also the year that the Tibetan leadership officially proclaimed Dorje Shugden practitioners as “criminals in history”. And the basis of the ban therefore shifted from the practice being harmful to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, over to Shugden people being Chinese spies.

So they stated this… Actually it’s captured within the resolution that they passed in 2014 by the Tibetan Parliament in Exile, and it actually reads regarding Shugden practitioners, “They are being deceived by the Chinese government through monetary and material incentive and are used as political tools”. And then goes on to say, “Further recognises also the Dolgyal followers and others – whose have caused grave harm to the faith and polity of Tibet under the Chinese government’s ploy and in violation of the law of Karma – as criminals in history”.

So ‘Dolgyal’ being the derogatory term that they use to refer to Shugden practitioners. So the sequence of events in that year alone, you see, is this: you have the International Shugden Community protestors who start protesting against the ban in February of 2014. And then a month later in March 2014, you have the Tibetan Parliament in Exile issuing this resolution claiming that these protestors and all Shugden practitioners in fact are “criminals in history”. In May 2014, the Tibetan Parliament then issues two hit lists, essentially, lists of Shugden practitioners – prominent Shugden practitioners – who had the courage, in our view, to protest against the ban, but in their view had the nerve to protest against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. And in this list…

Li Kim: And therefore warranted to be on the hit list.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes, warranted to be on the hit list, warranted to have violence directed against them and this list contained pictures of the protestors, it contained personal information leading up to even details of their home addresses. So it’s very clear to see that there’s been a very concerted and consistent effort to malign and to label Shugden practitioners as so-called Chinese spies.

Li Kim: And criminals.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes.

Li Kim: Wow, very, very malicious indeed. In 2015, you also have the media picking up news of this and, in my opinion, blowing it out of proportion but hey, let’s have a look at it objectively. The media picks up information and then apparently gives evidence by having witness statements saying that, “Yes, it is true, the Chinese government is paying Shugden practitioners to go ahead full steam, and continue to go against Tibet and go against the Dalai Lama.”

Surprisingly, these articles are actually quite convincing. They have so-called witnesses who have made statements and printed to say that, to confirm it, to confirm that such transactions are taking place to finance the movements of the horrible Shugden practitioners.

Pastor Jean Ai: And one such witness was a monk by the name of Lama Tseta who claimed that he was a very prominent Shugden practitioner who was very well-connected. He gave testimony saying that he has proof that Shugden practitioners have direct links to the Chinese leadership, received funding and support from the Chinese leadership. He filmed this video in 2015 and this video was widely publicised and promoted by the Tibetan leadership.

And Lama Tseta even added a dramatic bit at the end, when he cried to show his loyalty to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. That scene, sorry to say, was widely mocked by both anti-Shugden groups and pro-Shugden practitioners because it was contrived, to say the least.

Li Kim: Well, I think it was, you know, if everyone can accuse everybody for everything then you can say this is definitely a CTA-funded video.

Pastor Jean Ai: Of course.

Li Kim: Definitely, and the crying too.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes, and speaking of CTA-funded videos, the video was actually filmed by a gentleman by the name of Dhamchoe Nyima, in his home no less, and Dhamchoe Nyima is a former employee of the Tibetan leadership up till 2014-2015, in that period. But since then, he has actually changed his stance towards Lama Tseta. He’s changed his stance towards the Tibetan leadership because he’s grown to be so disillusioned with all of the scandals that he sees around him and he’s come to the point where he now calls Lama Tseta a liar and a “society destroyer”, I quote and….

Li Kim: So he’s the person who filmed the video.

Pastor Jean Ai: Yes.

Li Kim: Of Lama Tseta saying everything and giving “evidence”. I see.

Pastor Jean Ai: And you really have to wonder if it’s a video that you can trust because first of all, Lama Tseta in the video admits that he took money from the Chinese leadership. Then he says that he was a Shugden practitioner and now he’s not a Shugden practitioner; he has proof but he has never actually shown this proof. So you have to wonder, can you really trust a person who keeps changing his story and is very inconsistent with his story?

The fact that he…well, Lama Tseta himself said he has proof of his allegations that Shugden practitioners are connected to the Chinese. And that’s something that has actually led to Dhamchoe Nyima’s disillusionment because Dhamchoe Nyima actually asked Lama Tseta for this proof repeatedly, you know, over a period of time and Lama Tseta was never able to produce that proof.

And so Dhamchoe Nyima is someone who was employed by the Tibetan leadership. Even he believes that when you make an allegation or you make an accusation such as “Shugden practitioners are connected with the Chinese”, you need to show proof and evidence. You don’t just walk into a court of law, make an accusation against someone and then expect the judge to hand down a sentence based purely on your word. You actually need to show evidence proving that someone is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. And Lama Tseta has never been able to do that.

Because Dhamchoe Nyima witnessed that, it has actually led to him basically disbelieving the Tibetan leadership’s assertion that Shugden practitioners have some kind of links with China. And what you see here is that the Tibetan leadership are extremely keen to condemn Shugden practitioners…

Li Kim: At all costs!

Pastor Jean Ai: At all costs, yes.

Li Kim: Including falsifying information.

Pastor Jean Ai: Including falsifying information, including not doing their due diligence on people coming out of woodworks, making wild claims and accusations that have no basis whatsoever.

Li Kim: And creating their own definition of law to define who are criminals.

Pastor Jean Ai: Exactly.

Li Kim: Whoa, preposterous.

Martin: I just want to add on to what Pastor Jean Ai has said. It is really quite ironic that here we have the CTA saying Dorje Shugden people are taking money from China. And the only hardcore evidence of any Dorje Shugden person ever receiving money from China is in the case of Lama Tseta. So he is confirmed by his own admission to be a Chinese spy, to be Chinese-funded and a traitor to the Tibetan people.

Li Kim: Yes, yes.

Martin: And the paradox is, it is upon the testimony of this that they are now incriminating and punishing other people who have not and have never and will never take money to mortgage their religious practice for any political gains.

Li Kim: The media continues to cover these Dorje Shugden protests that take place following the Dalai Lama. And, you know, the way it is portrayed, is that all this is to undermine the Dalai Lama. And then on top of that, it gives a very bad impression that Dorje Shugden people are like a sect, like mobs. What can you add to that?

Martin: Again this is a very good example of the CTA being an administration that relies heavily on post truth. The reality is there has never been a Dorje Shugden sect ever, or a Dorje Shugden group as is alleged by the CTA now.

You see, the Dorje Shugden practice has always, from the beginning, been only one practice in Tibetan Buddhism, not the only practice. It is even safe to say that it is a considerably minor practice compared to a whole lot of other practices that one would receive from one’s teacher in practising Tibetan Buddhism.

So there has never been, in history, a group, a Dorje Shugden group with its own identity which is separate, which is apart from Tibetan Buddhism. We have to remember, Li Kim, that Tibetan Buddhism is 1,300…over a thousand years old and since that time, there have not been many new inventions to Tibetan Buddhism. You don’t just create new lineages and new practices. In fact, all the practices have been passed down over hundreds of years.

If there was such a thing as a Dorje Shugden sect or a Dorje Shugden cult which is different to Tibetan Buddhism, we would have heard of it. But we don’t hear of anything like that. There was never, in the spiritual history of Tibetan Buddhism, was there ever a Dorje Shugden sect. It was only after the Central Tibetan Administration coined this term and labelled Shugden people as being Chinese spies that this so-called sect appeared.

Li Kim: Is born.

Martin: How did that happen? And here you have to really understand what is going on here. That calling it a sect, calling it a cult, calling it a group is their way of saying, “Avoid these people because they’re anti-Dalai Lama, they’re anti-Dharma, they’re anti-Tibetan Buddhism.” Again, it comes under post truth and fake news.

Li Kim: It is… I think it’s also a way of adding a lot of definitions so that, at the end of the day, the Dorje Shugden practitioners just become outcasts and outcast completely from Tibetan Buddhism. Completely.

Martin: Correct. It’s very interesting and here we have to refer to something which Mr Lukar Jam said. Mr Lukar Jam is a Tibetan who was one of the candidates for the post of the Sikyong, the Presidency of the Central Tibetan Administration. And what he said… and bear in mind this is not a Dorje Shugden practitioner saying this, Lukar Jam said that you cannot take a monolithic view towards Shugden practitioners.

Essentially what he means is you cannot, it is wrong to group them altogether and say, “Isolate them” and just call them a sect. And Mr Lukar Jam also said that there may be some who have been colluding with China, who have taken money from China, like Lama Tseta who admitted he has.

And then there are those who are practising Dorje Shugden by tradition, something which has been passed down in the family from the teacher for a long time. And these people practise Dorje Shugden but they also love the Dalai Lama. They are not to be put together and it is wrong to put them together. But the very idea, the very suggestion that as long as you belong to one religion or one group, you’re instantly tarnished, you’re instantly bad, is illogical.

Li Kim: Yes, very.

Martin: Yes, it is like saying just because you belong to a certain religion, you are immediately a terrorist. Just because your skin is of a certain colour, you are very highly likely to be a criminal, to be stopped, to be cuffed, to be interrogated. Just because you belong to a certain gender, you are instantly weaker, you cannot command as high a position and pay as someone of other genders. And just because you have a certain sexual preference, you are immediately sinful, you are dirty, that the community should shun you, that you should be avoided and excommunicated. All these suggestions are really obscene and to say this, and then to say that all Shugden people are traitors, are against the Dalai Lama, work for the Chinese, it’s just a really obscene assault on everyone’s common sense. And it is ridiculous for the Central Tibetan Administration, supposedly a democratic administration, to even suggest that.

Li Kim: Not only suggest, Martin. Continue to fuel it year after year, adding more and more, you know, fire.

Martin: Yes. If we take the view that no one should be judged on the colour of their skin, their gender, their preferences or nationality, as we all agree should not be the case…

Li Kim: If one was truly democratic.

Pastor Jean Ai: That’s right.

Martin: Correct. Well, democratic is right but if one has common sense, logically it does not stand that just because you are of a certain religion, just because you are of a certain skin colour, you are immediately bad. The whole thing is just insane.

Pastor Jean Ai: It also goes that everything that Martin’s talked about, if you have any respect for basic human rights, that you would not segregate people on any of the points that Martin has raised.

Li Kim: Personal choice.

Pastor Jean Ai: Exactly.

Li Kim: Freedom of choice.

Pastor Jean Ai: Exactly. And to add to what Martin has raised earlier, that Dorje Shugden people who protested were in the hundreds and they do not represent the four million Shugden practitioners that exist all around the world. Martin had earlier raised and talked about a gentleman by the name of Mr Lukar Jam. And Mr. Lukar Jam was not the only person who said that Shugden practitioners are not a homogenous group.

Another author, a Buddhist author by the name of Justin Whitaker wrote on the website Patheos.com that there is no one single Shugden organisation that functions as an umbrella organisation representing the views or the opinions or approach to practice of all Shugden practitioners around the world.

And certainly, we here at Kechara under the guidance of our guru His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche, Tsem Rinpoche and Kechara have never participated in a protest. And therefore to say that all Shugden practitioners around the world have the same approach towards campaigning against the ban or even have the same approach to how they wish to maintain their practice of Dorje Shugden, it would be erroneous to assume that all of us are singular in this view.

Li Kim: I agree. Well, I definitely don’t have associations with China because I’m a Dorje Shugden practitioner. For business, yes, you know, for business, yes. But I don’t get paid to practise Dorje Shugden.

Martin: Let me just jump in here, just to say that the Central Tibetan Administration, for the good of their cause and for the reputation of the Tibetan people, should really stop saying this because this habit of simply accusing opponents of being Chinese spies has been noticed, has been observed and picked up by global news.

The Huffington Post wrote about it and more recently medium.com, which is a very dynamic website based in the US, have noticed how the CTA would very, very easily label people as Chinese spies and have done so over time, just to get people to oppose the people that the CTA is trying to target. So they should really, really stop saying this because it really makes them look ridiculous, it undermines the credibility of the Tibetan cause and it makes a mockery out of everything that Tibetan Buddhism stands for, which is logic.

Pastor Jean Ai: Quite frankly, using the word ‘Chinese’ to insult someone else is, in essence, a racial slur. It’s nothing more than that, to say that someone is bad to be Chinese.

Li Kim: Everything that you have shared… I mean, I’m sure I’m not the only one that’s going, “What? Seriously?” It’s mind-blowing how ridiculous it is, I mean, we as in Dorje Shugden practitioners are accused of being Chinese spies. You know, on social media it’s even nastier than that, “Chinese dogs” yes? It’s rude, it’s horrible, it’s inhumane.

Dorje Shugden practitioners are accused of undermining the Dalai Lama but if you think about it, the work that the CTA is doing, investing their time, effort and a lot of money probably, to keep on promoting this Dorje Shugden ban and the things they’re doing to this date in 2018, and publishing and putting things out there without evidence, is insulting. And if they want to talk about undermining, they are undermining the teachings of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I mean, telling lies? Having no compassion? You know, dividing people? It’s horrible, yes?

And also, I was just thinking, as ironic as it is, what’s his name, the one who, the tattle-tale, Lama Tseta. Before he said, “Oh, I don’t practise Shugden”, was he ever confirmed? He obviously testified against himself. He is a Chinese spy. He received money. Was any action taken against him since it’s the law in the resolution that he’s a criminal?

Pastor Jean Ai: Nothing. He’s just been promoted and celebrated.

Li Kim: Oh, been promoted. Wow. So in today’s time and age, obviously the CTA has not been updated how to treat people. Alright. I would like to add, this Chinese spy label used by the CTA is not unique to only the Dorje Shugden people. It is an old trick to incite violence and segregation towards anyone that the CTA considers to be not politically-inclined with their views, or people they perceive to be political opponents such as Lukar Jam, Rangzen activists, Mila Rangzen (an outspoken Tibetan), Member of Parliament Sharchok Cookta and Dudjom Rinpoche.

So back to the issue at hand, there has been no documented, legitimate evidence presented to prove any Dorje Shugden practitioner as a Chinese spy. Hearsay by a monk, self-incriminating by the way, does not count as evidence. It is racist to use the term ‘Chinese’ in this context all across the board. There are millions of practitioners who have nothing to do with China and would not appreciate being labelled a “Chinese spy” or even a “Chinese dog”.

Interestingly, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is making overtures to get closer to China. So, is the CTA going to start labelling him a Chinese spy too? With this, I will conclude this discussion and leave you with the knowledge to recognise facts and logic versus false allegations and prejudice.

Close transcript

Hello, my name is Li Kim. Today, I will share with you why there is no democracy for Dorje Shugden practitioners, clearly because the Central Tibetan Administration, CTA in short, in Dharamsala, North India is not truly democratic. The actions and resolutions made by the CTA towards the Dorje Shugden practice and practitioners are far from democratic. In fact, it is blatantly discriminatory and prejudiced. The executives of the CTA either have no conscience or are simply ignorant with how to apply democracy. Before I go further, please bear with me as I share with you the essence of a democracy. As this is not a political science seminar, I will spare us the lengthy details and summarise the key ingredients of a democracy.

Instead of quoting you lengthy definitions, I will quote Abraham Lincoln, the 16th President of the United States. He said it best in his short and precise phrase, “Democracy is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.” The element of freedom is one fundamental principle in a democracy. And to uphold this freedom, there is constitutional government, human rights and equality before the law. This must apply for the public good, which means for the many and not only for the privileged few. Democratic governments consist of officials or representatives who are elected by the citizens to make political decisions, formulate laws and administer programmes for the public good. Again I repeat, for the majority and not just the few. So when you read on the CTA’s website, which is accessible to the public, to the world in fact, resolutions that prohibit and forbid the worship of Dorje Shugden who the CTA deliberately insult with the derogatory term Dolgyal which means ‘evil spirit’, what are you to think? How are you supposed to think? Is this democratic? Where is the fundamental principle of freedom? Yes, I am aware that it says “You can choose” on the website. I know, but what I want to highlight is the clear threat of punishment if you exercised the freedom of religion, simply by quoting what’s on the website.

“Having said this, it is up to individuals themselves to decide as they like. We cannot force anyone to do anything against his or her wish. However, we would like to emphatically plead to the Shugden-worshippers that they should stop taking tantric initiations and teachings from His Holiness the Dalai Lama.”

Ladies and gentlemen, we need to understand that in the hearts and minds of all Tibetans, the Dalai Lama is their spiritual leader, their king. To not hear or see him is punishment. It is frightening to a normal Tibetan. And of course he or she will give up their freedom to choose Dorje Shugden. And I must add this one because it is just too disturbing for me to keep quiet. In the CTA’s website, there is this resolution.

“People should send as much report as possible so that the local government and concerned central government departments of India are kept informed of the activities of Shugden supporters.”

Seriously? Is it a crime to practise your religion that it must be reported to the authorities? And to add on, send as much as you can. Is there nothing else to do? In other democratic societies, matters of church and state are separated. Religious freedom is a guarantee in the constitution.

Let me read you some examples and we can compare.

United States. Constitution of the United States.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Clearly, church and state separated.

Australian Constitution Act.

“The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.”

Is that the same with the CTA? No. In fact if you practise Dorje Shugden, you can’t have a job with the government departments or its affiliates. You know, so if you practise Dorje Shugden, no work for you.

Next one. The Basic Law of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China.

“Hong Kong residents shall have freedom of conscience. Hong Kong residents shall have freedom of religious belief and freedom to preach and to conduct and participate in religious activities in public. The government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall not restrict the freedom of religious belief, interfere in the internal affairs of religious organisations or restrict religious activities which do not contravene the laws of the Region.”

Freedom of religion sounds like that ladies and gentlemen.

Constitution of the Arab Republic of Egypt.

“All citizens are equal before the law. They are equal in rights, freedoms and general duties, without discrimination based on religion, belief, sex, origin, race, colour, language, disability, social class, political or geographic affiliation or any other reason. Discrimination and incitement of hatred is a crime punished by Law. The State shall take necessary measures for eliminating all forms of discrimination, and the Law shall regulate creating an independent commission for this purpose.”

This is what democracy sounds like. Is it the same for the CTA? Yeah, in the Charter, but when it comes to inciting hatred against the Dorje Shugden people, I don’t see no law punishing the perpetrators.

I’m going to read out the Constitution for Canada.

“Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.”

Now, like I said, this is not a political science class.

Last one, my last example. The Federal Constitution of the Swiss Confederation.

“No person may be discriminated against, in particular on grounds of origin, race, gender, age, language, social position, way of life, religious, ideological, or political convictions, or because of a physical, mental or psychological disability. Freedom of religion and conscience is guaranteed. Every person has the right to choose freely their religion or their philosophical convictions, and to profess them alone or in community with others. Every person has the right to join or to belong to a religious community, and to follow religious teachings. No person may be forced to join or belong to a religious community, to participate in a religious act, or to follow religious teachings.”

People in Switzerland can choose and they have the right to attend teachings. But on the website of the CTA, sorry! If you practise Dorje Shugden, you cannot attend the teachings of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Ridiculous, don’t you say?

What can I say? Reading the rights on religious freedom from other countries only makes it so clear that what is happening to the Dorje Shugden practitioners by the CTA is wrong. Not only just wrong, it is unlawful. Let me take you one step further. Let’s look at the Charter of the Tibetans-in-Exile. Article 6. Article 6 is Recognition of International and Local Law. So,

“All laws, ordinances, regulations, administrative and executive orders of the Tibetan Administration-in-Exile shall conform to the generally accepted principles of international law and in particular comply with the local laws of the host countries.”

This means that for example, those who are living in Switzerland or Canada, I have read you their constitution, the Tibetans in exile who are living there should not bring with them all their bad attitude of discrimination, attacking Dorje Shugden practitioners. They cannot bring that with them to the countries that practise religious freedom. Now, going back to the Charter of the Tibetans-in-Exile. In Article 6, they say that they have to comply with international law.

So let’s just read the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

“Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.”

Freedom. Choice.

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

Is the CTA granting such rights to Dorje Shugden practitioners? No. So the CTA, the government, is in Dharamsala, North India, which means India is the host country, which means the Tibetan government needs to comply with the Constitution of India, which says:

“The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them. No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them, be subject to any disability, liability, restriction or condition with regard to – access to shops, public restaurants, hotels and places of public entertainment; or the use of wells, tanks, bathing ghats, roads and places of public resort maintained wholly or partly out of State funds or dedicated to the use of the general public.”

What is happening in the Tibetan settlements in India? There are signs like this that say, “No entry to you. You are not welcome because you practise Dorje Shugden.” Continuing in the constitution of India.

“No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, descent, place of birth, residence or any of them, be ineligible for, or discriminated against in respect of, any employment or office under the State.”

Like I said earlier, it states on CTA’s website that if you worship Shugden, you are reminded not to. Basically you won’t get a job with the government, you won’t be able to work, hold any position in the offices of the CTA. That’s what it means. As nicely as they write it or as correctly as they write it, that’s what it means.

“Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion.”

So why not DS practitioners? Why not? I can go on and on and on, but I think you get the picture. So my question is, “Is the CTA in compliance with their own Charter?” Let’s have a look at two more examples. Article 9. Equality Before The Law.

“All Tibetan citizens shall be equal before the law and shall enjoy the rights and freedoms set forth in this Charter without discrimination on grounds of birth, sex, race, religion, language, lay or ordained status, social origin, rich or poor.”

Is that for Dorje Shugden practitioners? No, no, no! Dorje Shugden practitioners don’t get to enjoy the rights of Article 9.

Article 10. Religious Freedom.

“All religious denominations are equal before the law. Every Tibetan shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. These religious rights include the freedom to manifest one’s beliefs, to receive initiation into religious traditions, and to practise with matters relating to religious commitment, such as preaching or worship of any religion, either alone or in community with others.”

So why not for Dorje Shugden practitioners? Hello? CTA? You are writing this in your Charter and it doesn’t seem to be what you’re executing or what you’re implementing. Clearly, there is something very wrong here. Are these articles in the Charter applicable to ALL Tibetans in exile EXCEPT Dorje Shugden practitioners? This is injustice. This is discrimination. There is no democracy for Dorje Shugden practitioners.

President Lobsang Sangay of the CTA delivered a lecture at Emory University School of Law on April 9th, 2018. He spoke about the Tibetan people’s transition to secular democracy. Interesting, right? What he delivered was all good and dandy if you were not a Dorje Shugden practitioner. Hence, I think the lecture should have been called, “The Execution of Selective Democracy”. On the side, let’s practise some severe discrimination. That’s what I think of course.

Let me explain a little bit further, bear with me, why the CTA’s lack of democracy towards the Dorje Shugden practitioners… Not lack actually, let me correct myself, why there is no democracy for Dorje Shugden practitioners. I’m going to go into this very quickly.

Social Welfare. Article 16 of the Charter.

“The Tibetan Administration-in-Exile shall endeavour to secure appropriate means of providing sources of livelihood, happiness and mental and physical well-being for the Tibetan people. Those policies shall include the promotion of equal opportunity and adequate means of livelihood, equal pay for equal work, either within the Tibetan Administration or any other institutions under its jurisdiction, and equal taxation in accordance with the amount of income.”

Like I said earlier, you don’t get to work for them if you worship Dorje Shugden. Equal? Equal is like this, not like that! Like, everyone else up here, Dorje Shugden practitioners down here! Hello? And, what happiness when you have signs like this in shops. Sorry, you practise Dorje Shugden. No entry for you. You are not welcome. Another example. Not welcome. Stay out. Get out. Bye bye, you practise Dorje Shugden.

Education and Culture. Article 17.

“The Tibetan Administration shall abide by the United Nations’ declarations of the rights of the children and shall provide all Tibetan children in exile, who have reached school age, the opportunity for primary education.”

No, no no! That’s not what is given to Dorje Shugden practitioners. You practise Dorje Shugden, no school for you. Stay home. No school for you. No shopping. No school. Ah! No medical care. We’ll come to that. Here you go. No education for you, you practise Dorje Shugden. Please do not come in and explore the teaching program. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is their spiritual teacher. Attending his talks is education, it’s culture. But no, cannot, not you. You practise Dorje Shugden, no teachings for you.

Last one. Article 18. Health.

“The Tibetan Administration shall endeavour to promote adequate health, medical and sanitation services, and provide free medical treatment for the needy. It shall conduct special medical care programs for immunisation and chronic illnesses and educate people on environmental issues.”

Oh no no no! You practise Dorje Shugden, please enjoy bad health. There’s no medical care for you, stay out. Get sick, we don’t care. Another one. Clinic. But not for you, you practise Dorje Shugden. Not for you, stay sick, be sick.

After you hear all that, doesn’t it make you kind of sick in your stomach? Lobsang Sangay goes around the world, places, travels to talk about democracy. Seriously? I don’t know. I think my stomach will turn, but nevermind that. Let’s just talk about what’s available online, just in case they can’t really access the Charter and get a copy of it. No, can’t get a hard copy. Let’s just have a look. This is what they have online. Can you please tell me which government on this planet puts in so much effort, dedicates one whole section on Dolgyal? Dorje Shugden, how bad it is and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Now over here, you will notice 1996, 1997, 2014. They’re very progressive, they’re very dedicated to update this part of the website. They’re very committed to ensure you take notice so that you can maintain and upkeep your discrimination against Dorje Shugden practitioners. Upkeep the fact that there’s no democracy for them. You know, the way they write it has improved. They bring in the Dalai Lama a lot. They are compliant to the Dalai Lama. They are listening to the advice of the Dalai Lama. In a real democracy, church and state are separated. In this “democracy”, bring in the church, mix up the state so that we get to be right, so that we practise no democracy for Dorje Shugden practitioners. Here is the best part, the way they write it. You know, listen to this one.

“Recognition should be given to those who followed Shugden in the past out of ignorance, but have now given up the practice; efforts should be made to ensure that they do not suffer as a result of having given up the Shugden practice;”

What is the Tibetan government trying to say? Dorje Shugden practitioners are ignorant? They practise out of ignorance? And the way they write it, “Yes, you are recognised, you’re honoured for giving it up.” And then they say, you must be careful for your safety now. What are they saying? Shugden practitioners are violent? And that if you choose to follow the Dalai Lama, they are going to beat you up? But the way it’s written here, they are inciting. The way it’s written here, they’re provoking that to happen. Even if it doesn’t happen, when you read this, it will happen.

Oh, talking about dedication. Yeah, dedication, dedication! Constant updates. This is updated, let me see, 2014 and now they pull in the Chinese. They say that you know Dorje Shugden are Chinese spies, online you hear ‘Chinese dogs’. Which government on this planet has a website that is so dedicated to just one singled out religion? Condemning it. Making sure discrimination is upheld. I don’t know any, except the Central Tibetan Administration’s website.

This is not democracy, ladies and gentlemen. It’s cruel. It is filled with discrimination. It’s unkind. There is no need to uphold any good moral ground, to look good and feel good and preach that you practise democracy when there is in reality, a group of people about 4 million of them known as Dorje Shugden practitioners, who do not receive the equality and fairness of democracy.

On behalf of the Dorje Shugden practitioners, I ask, no, in fact, I firmly demand that the CTA review their standards of executing the true meaning of a democracy. Be fair. Give equal rights to all your citizens. Be sincere when you give them the choice to choose their religious practices. Do not penalise them when they do. Start by removing all this discrimination against them from your website. On this note, I pray for the unity, harmony and happiness for all Tibetan people, most of all, for the Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Close transcript

Hi, my name is Pastor Jean Ai and today, I will be speaking about a topic that’s slightly controversial but probably no more so compared to the Dorje Shugden issue.

As a Malaysian, the topic of self-immolations does not directly affect me but as a previous supporter of the Tibetan cause, I have some concerns about what I observe in the Tibetan community today. So it is not that I am trying to impose my opinions, nor do I wish to hurt anyone. It is certainly not my intention to belittle the sacrifices of people who have lost their lives. But I am generally and genuinely concerned about this unnecessary loss of lives.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines self-immolations as a deliberate and willing sacrifice of oneself, often by fire. Historically, the term has been used to refer to acts like starvation or hara-kiri but since the 1960s, it has been used to almost exclusively refer to suicide by fire.

For most people, the first time they ever saw a self-immolation was during the Viet Nam War when the image of a monk, Venerable Thich Quang Duc self-immolating was widely publicised. The image of a calm, dignified monk meditating and not flinching while he was on fire, moved everyone who saw it. The American President at the time, John F. Kennedy, said that no single image in history has generated so much emotion as that one. Meanwhile the American public were so shocked, it compelled them to pressure their government to withdraw support for the Vietnamese leadership at the time who were persecuting Buddhists.

In more recent times, the act of self-immolations has become identified with the Tibetan cause. Since 2008, over 150 Tibetans have self-immolated to express their desperation and suffering over their lack of political progress. However, their actions have come to be seen as less effective than Venerable Duc’s of Viet Nam. This is because in spite of the self-immolations, very few countries around the world have responded to the tragic loss of Tibetan lives by increasing their financial, political and moral support for the Tibetans.

This had led people to ask, are self-immolations acceptable? The act of self-immolations can be examined from two perspectives – secular and spiritual.

From a secular point-of-view, when you engage in any form of protest, you do so because you want to bring about a particular result. So if that form of protest is not gaining the desired result, you have to wonder if it really makes sense to continue in the same way, instead of changing tactics. Although over 150 Tibetans have given their lives, world leaders have either maintained or even reduced the amount of support they give to the Tibetans. For example, India who is the Tibetans’ greatest benefactor, and who should theoretically be more sympathetic towards the Tibetan plight, continue to maintain their One China Policy in spite of these self-immolations.

So if even India is not moved, why do Tibetans continue in this act?

Observers have also examined the Tibetan self-immolations from a spiritual point-of-view because the Tibetans are famously Buddhist.

As Buddhists, we believe in the preciousness of human life. It is the first chapter of the Lamrim, which is the book studied by the vast majority of Tibetan Buddhists all around the world.

Buddhists talk about the preciousness of human life because it endows us with the mental and physical capacity, and the environmental factors to study, understand and practise the Dharma.

So from a Buddhist perspective, everything about self-immolations is not acceptable. As a lay Buddhist, it is one of your refuge vows not to take the life of another sentient being and that includes yourself. And as an ordained Buddhist, it is one of your core ordination vows not to take any life. So once you break that core vow, unfortunately you’re no longer a monk.

Secularly and spiritually speaking therefore, there is very little reason to continue with self-immolations. Secularly, it is not getting the Tibetan community the results they want and spiritually, it does not match their Buddhist culture and principles.

So now the question is – why has the Tibetan leadership allowed it to continue for this long? After the 20th, 30th self-immolation, why didn’t the government speak up strongly against it to stop it, and to tell their people that it is not working to pressure world leaders to increase their support for them? And what are they doing now to stop more Tibetans from giving up their lives?

Unfortunately, it seems that not much, or rather not enough is being done. I have some friends who live in the Tibetan settlements and they’ve told me, it’s frustrating for them to see the self-immolation memorials because it makes the self-immolations look good. There is one in Delhi’s Majnu-Ka-Tilla Tibetan Settlement for example, and another in Dharamsala. And these kinds of memorials kind of glamourise the deaths and therefore encourage people to follow in the self-immolators’ footsteps because they know, they will be celebrated for their act which they feel demonstrates their loyalty to Tibet. All of this will only lead to more Tibetan lives being lost and my friends just don’t want to see this happening anymore. They would rather have more Tibetans “live to fight another day”, than to give up their lives now.

Friends have also told me that people do wonder why the Tibetan leadership spends money on these memorials, when perhaps they should be using it, using this money to build schools, to fund hospitals, to establish libraries to help improve the lives of the Tibetans in exile. Why tell someone you love them after they’ve died, when you can show it to them while they are alive?

Now all of this has led to speculation that the Tibetan leadership do not actually want to speak up against the self-immolations because it serves some sort of purpose for them. As we have seen with their recent scandals, such as the missing 1.5 million dollars, the Tibetan administration is quite money-driven. Hence people are talking and saying, that the Tibetan leadership allows these self-immolations to keep happening because it keeps the Tibetan cause relevant in modern times, when the world is already dealing with so many other geo-political issues. So as long as the Tibetan cause remains relevant, and Tibetans continue to die in the name of Tibet, it means people will continue to donate and sponsor their government.

But the sad fact is, these 150 over deaths have not led to much. In fact, day by day, support for the Tibetan leadership continues to decrease while the world opts to form positive bilateral relations with China, arguably the world’s most powerful economy today.

So again, we go back to the question – why do the Tibetan leadership allow the self-immolations to continue, when the only thing it seems to be doing is reducing the number of Tibetans? After all, Tibetan lives are much, much more precious than any money their leadership can receive.

If we give them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps the Tibetan leadership did try to stop it but people are not listening. However, it is very difficult for me to believe that they have run out of ideas to try and stop the self-immolations. Take the Dorje Shugden ban for example. The Tibetan leadership have printed books, brochures, filmed videos, hung up posters all telling people over and over again to give up Dorje Shugden. They’ve spoken out so strongly against the Dorje Shugden practice, they’ve even gone so far as to expel monks from their monasteries if they refuse to give up Shugden.

So how come the Tibetan leadership have not gone to the same lengths when it comes to self-immolations? That is the question many people are asking.

People are also saying that when so many Tibetans have self-immolated, it actually reflects the lack of hope they feel in their Tibetan leadership. The fact is, within effective governments where people have their voices heard, the population does not need to self-immolate in protest. They have proper, democratic channels through which they can make their voices heard. It’s only in autocracies and authoritarian regimes, or when the people are desperate because no one knows their suffering, that they have to resort to such extreme acts of protest which involves giving up their lives.

In his press release regarding self-immolations, my teacher H.E. Tsem Rinpoche said that “the act of setting oneself ablaze is not one that should be glorified, politicised or encouraged as a means of accomplishing personal or political agendas.” As Buddhists, we should reject all forms of violence and use our precious human lives to seek more positive ways to create the change we want.

Rinpoche urged the Tibetan leadership to speak up more strongly against the self-immolations. Rinpoche suggested that they can make announcements and send representatives to all the Tibetan settlements. Educate people on why they should stop self-immolating, because Tibetan lives are precious and giving it up is not helping to raise awareness or support for the cause.

Rinpoche has also respectfully requested His Holiness the Dalai Lama to speak up firmly and ask Tibetans not to destroy their own lives, and to achieve their cause through peaceful means. After all, if His Holiness has spoken up strongly against the practice of Dorje Shugden, he can also do the same against self-immolations.

In summation, I offer for you Rinpoche’s actual words of request:

“I humbly request the Tibetan leadership and governments around the world to end needless suffering. Please be more compassionate. Please open your hearts. Please use love, compassion and wisdom to heal conflicts and make the world a better place. We can find more positive ways of making change in society. We must educate people on this strongly and stop all acts of self-harm which cause more suffering on top of what people already face in life.

I offer my heartfelt and deepest prayers for all those who have self-immolated for a cause they strongly believe in. I send my heartfelt prayers, tears and anguish along with condolences to their families and friends.”

Again, all of this is being said out of concern, as someone who formerly supported the Tibetan cause. It is not being said with the intent of hurting anyone or diminishing the significance of their sacrifice. I hope the Tibetan leadership will come together soon to protect and preserve the Tibetan culture and religion, starting first with protecting and preserving their people’s lives. Thank you very much for listening.

Close transcript

Hi, my name is Pastor Khong Jean Ai and I am a student of H.E. the 25th Tsem Rinpoche here at Kechara in Malaysia.

For the last 20 to 30 years, the Tibetan leadership have divided their community on many issues. There is the issue of the two Karmapas, there is the issue of the Panchen Lamas and of course, there is the issue of Dorje Shugden.

Thanks to the Tibetan leadership’s enforcement and encouragement of these divisions, not only has the community divided according to their opposing views, but the monasteries have also split as well.

For example, within the Dorje Shugden issue, Gaden Shartse Monastery split into Shartse which does not practise Dorje Shugden, and Shar Gaden Monastery which does practise Dorje Shugden.

Sera Mey Monastery gave up their Shugden practice and the monks who refused to abide by the ban were expelled and forced to form Serpom Monastery which does practise Shugden.

And while the Tibetan leadership may be okay with the many schisms and divisions within their community, I think that it’s pretty disturbing that after 600 years, anyone can be okay, justify or excuse the fact that great monastic institutions are split in two.

Is this the vision that Lama Tsongkhapa had for the monasteries?

There are a lot of people who think that the time for healing has come but with the divisions and hatred so deeply entrenched, most people don’t know how to go about this healing process. So what I’m going to talk about today may not necessarily be the most popular opinion but I figured hey, with so many exciting geopolitical changes taking place globally, isn’t it time we try something new? Everything else that’s been tried for the last 20 years has pretty much failed.

So if you look at what’s going on in the world today, many opposite sides are coming together to try and move forwards towards a harmonious future. And how are they going to do that? Through mutual respect. In our case specifically as Shugden practitioners, this means seriously considering why it is important to respect His Holiness the Dalai Lama as part of our reliance on Dorje Shugden.

Most of you will not believe that I am telling the truth, thinking, “Oh, she practises Shugden, of course she would say that.” So let me offer you a little proof that doesn’t come from me, but from people who are clearly and obviously not Shugden practitioners.

In 2015, in the aftermath of a Reuters article, there were a number of people who spoke up against the inaccuracies they perceived in the article.

Two of these critics were Justin Whitaker, a Buddhist author and Lukar Jam, a candidate in the 2016 Sikyong Prime Ministerial elections. Both said that it is a fallacious belief that Shugden practitioners are a homogenous group who share only one view of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

They said that in essence, there are three main groups. The first group does not say anything, preferring to maintain their practice in silence. Another group outright protests against His Holiness the Dalai Lama and because of them, a lot of attention and awareness has been brought to the ban on Dorje Shugden. The third and final group speaks up against the ban but they continue to advocate respect for His Holiness. And we at Kechara, under His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche’s guidance, fall under this third group of people and I would like to share with you the reasons why.

The first reason is that being respectful of the Dalai Lama proves that there is nothing wrong with Shugden practice and that you don’t become rude or mean when you do the practice.

People accuse Dorje Shugden of being spirit worship, saying that the practice leads you further away from enlightenment because Buddhists are not supposed to pray to spirits.

On the other hand, we Shugden practitioners maintain that Shugden practice brings us closer to enlightenment because Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.

Since that is our position, it is therefore our responsibility to consider how our behaviour reflects our practice, how the world at large will view our behaviour, and how that view will affect our campaign to lift the ban.

So we say that Dorje Shugden practice brings us closer to enlightenment but what does that actually mean? The most basic definition is that we become kinder, gentler people. It means that we become respectful to everyone, whether or not they will treat us in the same way.

We can also talk about this from the perspective of conventional and ultimate view. Conventional view is seeing things for how they appear, while ultimate view is seeing things for what they really are.

Now applying this to a real-life situation, it means if you engage in outwardly disrespectful behaviour, most people will automatically surmise it is because you are an inherently disrespectful person.

Maybe you have your good reasons for being disrespectful. Maybe it is because you are trying to shock people or create some sort of ruckus, so everyone pays attention. But because most of the world operates from conventional view, they will never know that ultimately good motivation of yours. They will only see what is put in front of them and so in this conventional world, when we disrespect His Holiness the Dalai Lama, our behaviour as perceived by the wider community may not match their projection of a Buddhist practitioner.

In being rude and vulgar, or appearing violent, third party observers who don’t know any better will immediately associate our behaviour with our Shugden practice. This means if we are rude, they will think that Shugden taught us to be rude. If we are mean-spirited, they will blame our behaviour on Dorje Shugden.

So it is important for us to bear this in mind. That most of the world operates from a conventional view and therefore respecting His Holiness the Dalai Lama helps to show that when we practise Dorje Shugden, it turns us into nicer, kinder people. That it was Dorje Shugden who inspired us to tolerate adversity with patience.

Look, he’s the guy whose name is being dragged through the mud. And if he can tolerate that with dignity, why can’t we?

The second reason for why it is important to respect His Holiness the Dalai Lama is that being respectful of His Holiness proves that Shugden-practising high lamas are right because their students are a reflection of their teachers.

Even though this may be a reductive, over simplistic approach, again according to the conventional view of the world, that is the approach most people will use. Like father, like son and like mother, like daughter.

Let me give you an example that will make things clearer. Take for instance, Penpa Tsering, the former Speaker of the Tibetan Parliament in exile and the former Dalai Lama’s representative or donjo to North America.

In 2014, while addressing a crowd of Tibetan students, Penpa Tsering told everyone that Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche died coughing blood.

He intentionally lied to a new generation of Tibetan youth who don’t know any better, and changed their perception of one of Tibet’s greatest lamas of living memory.

In doing so, Penpa Tsering perpetuated a cycle of destruction and hate in order to further his political agenda, to appear that he is fervently supportive of the Tibetan leadership’s ban on anything related to Dorje Shugden. He planted the seeds of hatred and disharmony inside impressionable young minds and taught the children how to discriminate and divide.

Back then, and even now, we say that Penpa Tsering’s poor behaviour reflects his lack of practice, or the inability of his teacher to impart any kindness or consideration into him. We say Penpa Tsering is this way and makes such ignorant remarks because his teacher did not teach him very well.

So how come that logic applies to him, and it doesn’t apply to us? When we behave badly, it doesn’t reflect well on our teachers either, just like how Penpa Tsering was a bad reflection of his guru due to his poor behaviour.

The other real point is that we get upset when Penpa Tsering makes such derogatory remarks about Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche because he’s our lineage guru. Think about how strongly we feel when people insult our lineage masters.

And then think about His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and the fact that he is the guru and lineage master of people who hate Dorje Shugden. How will they feel when we insult their teacher, His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

So when both sides are insulting each others’ teachers, and wounding one another with weapons of the tongue, how can reconciliation between the two sides be possible?

Instead of focusing on how to hurt each other, we must focus on the core issue and that is, there is a ban and it is wrong on all levels, whether spiritually, or purely from a human-to-human level. No one has any right to tell a person what they can or cannot believe in, and to use force to impose that view on them.

Now, when I talk about respecting His Holiness the Dalai Lama, that respectful attitude can arise from two premises. The first premise is that we should always be respectful of another human being, any human being.

The second premise is that we should be respectful because His Holiness the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig.

Look, maybe the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig, maybe he’s not. Either way, it cannot harm us to view him as an attained being because:

1. If His Holiness the Dalai Lama turns out to be ordinary, at least we did not accumulate the negative karma of offending or hurting the feelings of another sentient being.
2. If His Holiness the Dalai Lama turns out to be an extraordinary being, then luckily we did not accumulate the negative karma of denigrating a Buddha.

Our great Shugden lamas always counsel us to never lose respect for His Holiness the Dalai Lama and this is something that as Shugden practitioners, we must follow. In my 20 years of relying on Dorje Shugden, I have never heard of one single Shugden lama who has been truly disrespectful of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

The advice to respect His Holiness the Dalai Lama started with His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang in his seminal written work Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, and has continued up to the present day with our teacher, His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche and even Dorje Shugden. If Dorje Shugden himself counsels us to respect His Holiness the Dalai Lama, would it not make sense that in the grand scheme of things, it is important for us to do so?

At the end of the day, regardless of how we intend to get there, what is our ultimate goal? Why do we practise the Dharma and what are we trying to achieve? Whether you rely on Shugden or not, everyone’s ultimate goal is actually enlightenment so whatever we do, we always have to remember that it is our spirituality that is at stake. And when we denigrate the opposite side, it may feel satisfying for the moment but it will not be beneficial for our spirituality in the long run.

We say we practise Dorje Shugden to protect our spiritual path, to give us a chance to alleviate our sufferings and that of others. Well, we can start that here and now, with our body, speech and mind, by carrying through what our own Protector has advised us. Therefore to respect His Holiness the Dalai Lama is to respect our own spiritual practice and progress, and that is what our teacher H.E. the 25th Tsem Rinpoche has always taught us.

Thank you for listening today to these thoughts that I have to share. My name is Pastor Khong Jean Ai and I spoke about the importance of respecting His Holiness the Dalai Lama and how we as Dorje Shugden practitioners should always do so. I gave you two main reasons, as well as talked about it from the perspective of conventional and ultimate view.

May His Holiness have a long life, may the Tibetan people always have harmony amongst themselves and may they always have great spiritual teachers to continue turning the wheel of Dharma.

Thank you.

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