TRANSCRIPT

My name is Geshe Sopa. Before ’96… 2008, I was Gaden Shartse, you know? After that, we split the monastery. Then I moved to Shar Gaden and then now I’m in… Since ’96, I moved to USA and now I’m living in USA and since 2004, I was serving with Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and now I’m living Vermont with Rinpoche.

Why do you practise Dorje Shugden?

Actually, practising Dorje Shugden, I have to tell you that since last August, until then, I’m not really a practitioner of Dorje Shugden. But since I became a monk, I believe Dorje Shugden. Why is that? My root guru and my house teacher and everybody’s practising Dorje Shugden, therefore I’m believing that this is real Protector. I believe him. I didn’t have, personally, initiation until last August. Last August I got an initiation in Mongolia. I took initiation that day in August with 600 to 700 people. I was really happy about that. I have a lot of Dharma friends. Therefore I took initiation that time.

Why I was participating with Shugden practitioner is that my root guru and my spiritual teacher, everybody’s practising that. Therefore, I have to follow that. In this world and this… whoever, main thing is that if you are doing practise of Dharma, your guru is the main object of the practice and main root of the Lamrim. Therefore I have to follow my root guru.

When HH the Dalai Lama banned Dorje Shugden’s practice, why didn’t you give up?

I didn’t give up. Why is that? My root guru and my teacher, everybody didn’t give up. Therefore I didn’t give up. In this world where… you need to believe. You need to believe only your root guru and your teacher. Therefore I didn’t give up and I give up all my family. And to tell the truth is that, my family is not important and my family’s relation is only this life, and my root guru and my teacher’s relation is forever. Therefore I didn’t give up.

Have you ever experienced discrimination because of your practice of Dorje Shugden?

For example, myself, you know… I have same parent, I have five sisters and I have four brothers. They all live in South India and since ’96 you know, I didn’t have any contact with my brothers and sisters, until now. And that was really discrimination. Communist Chinese come and did with the Tibetan people, same like that Dalai Lama did our practitioners of Dorje Shugden. That everything is same, everything, action and everything is actually doing same.

But what Dalai Lama is doing is only hidden in the Tibetan community. Whole world didn’t know about these things. Therefore now, International Dorje Shugden Society and we are trying to show this discrimination to the world. I think is… it will take time but it will be soon. The world will know about this.

Some people say there is no ban on Dorje Shugden’s practice. Do you agree?

Yeah, now we are saying it’s banned, you know, we’re saying it’s banned but Dalai Lama and that Tibetan Exile Government, they says they didn’t banned. Nowadays, they say these things, you know? I think it’s really banned. Why it is really banned? Now Dalai Lama says that, “Oh, this is only advice.” He didn’t say he didn’t ban. I don’t think it is advice, you know. If it’s real advice, then those who wanted to listen, that’s okay. Those who didn’t want to listen, that’s okay also, you know? It’s not like that. Why is that? Dalai Lama said that he start this controversy and he says he’s going to finish this one also.

And not only that, he says that those who are kick out from the monastery and those who have been get out from the monastery, he says he was really happy and he was rejoicing that, you know. If it is advice, he don’t need to rejoice these things. Therefore this ban is really ban. They say it’s not ban but it’s not that.

Now I think they’re changing a little bit. Why is that? World is knowing, therefore he’s changing. I don’t think he can hide these things. And one thing is that now, why he is changing? Before he’s saying that there’s some elderly monks are there and whatever Dalai Lama says, they will follow that. Nobody will go against him. His main thinking was that now it’s 21st Century, it’s not like that. Therefore I think now, I’m sure he has big regret but he didn’t want to clear that. Why is that? He has a big ego and he didn’t want to destroy his big ego. Therefore he’s still, he’s hanging there. Anyway, this ban will be, soon or later, it will be something happens, you know?

What problems have you experienced due to the ban?

In this ban, we have a lot of problems. Those who are practising Dorje Shugden, they have some problem with the husband and wife, you know. In family and your friend and the guru, your teacher and their students, a lot of problems. From my side, you know, I have… if I say it’s problem then my family, whole family, not practising Dorje Shugden, and my whole family is from Kagyu. And I have five sisters, four brothers and all are living in South India and they have a lot of children, their son and daughter and now there’s a lot there. But a lot of my friend, they told me that, “Oh, you should think about your relatives, your friend, your sisters and brothers. You cannot do these things.” They say that things. Many people advise me, “You don’t follow the Dorje Shugden practitioner, you should stay in quiet place and do your things.” They say that, you know.

In my mind, you know, I have to think that, which is important? My family or my guru, you know? These things, I need to choose. If I go my friend, my family, then it’s difficult to see my guru.

Therefore I think and then I decide, my family are one lifetime. After we died, you never know where you are going. My sister, where she’s going, where I am going, we didn’t know. This is one lifetime relationship. And my guru, I have to keep. Guru relation is really important. It’s not only one lifetime. It’s life to life, until enlightenment. It’s really important to keep your relation with your guru. And we are always praying that we meet with the right guru, you know. Therefore, I decided with disconnect my family and I joined my guru. What Tibetan Government says, what my family says, I don’t care. That’s my last decision.

Why do you join the protests?

I joined the protest. 2008, I joined in the demonstration. Why is that? That time our monasteries were going to separate. Gaden Shartse Monastery was going to separate. I thought that we do some demonstration, it will help and we not need to go separate from the monastery. Therefore I joined that, you know.

It’s helping a lot but actually, we have no choice. Only thing we can do is only demonstration. Otherwise there’s nothing to do and nothing to develop with the Dalai Lama, nothing to develop with the Tibetan Exile Government. Nobody’s listening to us. Therefore, only thing we can do is the demonstration. Therefore I joined that demonstration since 2008, and I joined this year. I will join in future also, you know. And that’s why. Only hope is that… I was hoping that our monasteries don’t need to go separate. Therefore, we do that but it didn’t help, but I’m going to do again and again, and doesn’t matter how many times, I’m going to do it. That’s my promise.

Some people say that Dorje Shugden practitioners are not united. What do you think of this?

This is the nature of samsara and there’s a lot of arguing in Dalai Lama, always and everywhere, you know. They want to do destroy our harmony, therefore they are saying these.

Actually that’s good for us. Outside people are saying like this, “Dorje Shugden practitioners are not united” and these things, our practitioners, our real practitioners, they have to think and they will try to be united and become stronger. And small things are happening everywhere, and we no need to worry about these things. Why is that? We are in samsara. This is the nature of samsara.

Some people say that Dorje Shugden practitioners are violent? Have you ever seen evidence of this?

Oh no, no, no, no, no. I didn’t saw anything like that. And mostly demonstration and in 2008 and this year, always, mostly time, I’m the one who organise to demonstration, and we always tell them that we no need to do violent and these things, and we never happen these things. And people are saying these things but they always says that, “They are the demon, they are the bad people, they are the harming people.” Says these things but they’re saying also that, “These are getting money from China and they’re hired by Chinese”, you know? They say these things.

Actually, this is nature of Dalai Lama’s people. Those people who didn’t listen their advice, Dalai Lama’s advice, they always say these things, but these are not true. I think other than that, they have nothing to say about us. Actually, in this world, nobody can say that “this is a demon and this is god, or this is Buddha”. Nobody can say that. We cannot judge anybody. Buddha says that we cannot judge anybody. If you are become a Buddha, then you can judge people. Otherwise nobody can judge and they didn’t know these things. Therefore whatever they say, the reason is that they didn’t like us, therefore they are saying these things.

How did you feel when your name was included in the recent Tibetan government hit list?

Actually my name came in CTA. Actually, maybe they thought that they are giving us a warning or something like that, you know. I got the letter. I got that internet CTA webpage and somebody sent me letter also. And I was really happy about that, you know. Why is that? If we are doing demonstration and these things, if they put our name on this webpage, that means what we are doing, there’s… they’re showing that our job is going a little bit success.

Therefore I was rejoice that. I was really happy about that. I tell them before that whatever they wanted to do, I’m happy they can do it, you know. I tell them that my life, if I die today, my life is short. If I die tomorrow, my life is longer. That’s my feeling and that’s my thought. Therefore I was really happy they put my name on that. That means what I’m doing is right, you know.

Are you concerned for your safety as a result of this hit list?

I’m not afraid about them harming me and beating me and doing these things. And this Exile Government, they have one idea that they’re giving the poisons, you know. Therefore I have to be careful. I don’t want to die unnecessarily, therefore I’m doing my best to keep carefully, you know.

What are your thoughts about the ban?

To ban, there’s nothing hope, you know. Ban… Our Tibetans is falling apart. To ban this, Tibetans is falling apart and to tell the truth, Dalai Lama and this Samdhong Lama and these all are, you know, they destroy their guru devotion. Now they don’t have any guru devotion. And they says all the time in this world, compassion and compassion. They’re selling only compassion, therefore he’s famous but actually, they didn’t know about compassion.

Why is that? They didn’t know about what is the object of compassion, you know. The object of compassion is all sentient beings. If you have real compassion, you’re an emanation of Buddha. You have to be compassionate to all the sentient beings. And they think that our… those who are practising Dorje Shugden, they think these are not sentient beings and they cannot come teaching, and they cannot go anywhere. That’s not right.

What are some of the effects of the ban?

Before 2008, if Dalai Lama visit in West, he is going really nice. He was invited by really nice people. He can go in the main gate. After ban, now he have to hide and he have to go in the backdoor. These things are happen and our Tibetans, after the ban, a lot of families are going separate and a lot of teacher and student going separate, a lot of monasteries are going separate. There’s no harmony in the Tibetan community. There’s nothing there. Now Tibetan has no goal. Nothing is there. Nothing left, you know. This is the ‘benefit’ of banning Dorje Shugden.

What is your greatest wish if the ban is lifted?

My hope is that our monasteries have to be joined together again. That’s the main goal and why is that? I was raised in Gaden Shartse and I got everything – education and everything – from Gaden Shartse. And Shar Gaden is the beginning of when Gaden established from Tsongkhapa. That time, Shar Gaden is part of Gaden Shartse. Therefore, I didn’t want be separate from Gaden Shartse. And one thing is that… one thing in my mind is really sad is that I built Gaden Shartse Monastery, own. I worked really hard there. I try my best, do my job and then now I cannot go, you know. If ban is lifted I can go and join in the monastery. That will be really good. I have a lot of friends who are there.

Now actually, mostly my friends are older monks, they are almost passed away, you know. Still there are some left but those who are passed away, they’re not die with peace. They are die with sadness for dividing our monastery and all these things. And yeah, if ban is lifted that will be really good. The main thing is I wanted to be join my monastery. I wanted to spend some times to my monastery.

What advice would you like to give other Dorje Shugden practitioners?

I think now those who are practising Dorje Shugden, I think they know, mostly people, they know what they’re doing. Main thing is that what we are doing is not only about Dorje Shugden. What we are doing is, the main is that our lineage, you know? That’s the main thing. Whatever people say about Dorje Shugden, nobody can destroy Dorje Shugden. Main thing is that they’re talking about Dorje Shugden. The main goal is that they wanted to destroy our lineage.

Therefore we have to keep our lineage, it’s really important. We have to follow our spiritual guide. We have to think about our pure lineage. That’s the main thing. What they says about Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden doesn’t matter. Whatever they says, nobody see him and nobody can harm him. Nothing is there. They’re just saying about Dorje Shugden but main goal is that they wanted to harm our lineage. Our Kyabje Pabongka, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, through the lineage, they wanted to harm that.

What advice would you like to give non-Dorje Shugden practitioners?

Those who are not practising Dorje Shugden… main thing is that now it’s time to check whatever, don’t follow the famous people and this is not like old age now. It’s 21st Century. Everybody has to open their eyes. Before, whatever they says, there’s nothing, no cameras. There’s nothing recording. Then nothing you can say. Now, this century, whatever you say, you can see it. In future, if somebody ask you, “Why you say that?” they will show the camera and old recording. You cannot say that, “I didn’t say.” Same like that, now Dalai Lama says he didn’t… before he banned it, he says “Oh, whatever happens, happened. You can put on my name.” He says that. And “I start this. I’m going to finish this one”, also he said that, you know.

Now he’s coming down. He says, “Oh, I didn’t ban it. I gave them just advice.” Now he’s saying these things but now, he cannot hide whatever he says before. It’s all there, you know. Same like that, now whatever those who are not practising Dorje Shugden, they have to think carefully and don’t follow the famous people.

Do you think Tibetan people are beginning to realise that the Dorje Shugden ban is wrong?

Now I think, like last time when I was doing the demonstration in many places, about two weeks, I saw a lot of Tibetan people. They’re changing their mind, you know. Still they know that Dalai Lama is doing wrong, they cannot come up. Now in maybe some years, after a few years, they will be speak out. I’m sure they will be out.

Before, same like that, before we are waiting for 20 years, hoping he will do something. He didn’t do it, therefore we came up. Same like that, in future, there will be more Tibetan people who will come up then he has to think, you know. November 5th, he was giving a talk with the Tibetan people. He says, it was really sad that, he says that those who are following Dalai Lama, he says, “Oh, now you have a one new job. To defeat those Dorje Shugden practitioners” and he says for fighting inside the Tibetans.

Those who are practising Dorje Shugden, doing demonstration and those who are not practising Dorje Shugden, they are against us and what Dalai Lama says, “Oh, you guys have a new job. Thank you so much, you are doing this job.” He says, “Thank you so much.” This is not like who is the leader of Tibetan, you know, he cannot say these things. He said that things. That means showing that he says that, now we need to fight inside together, you know. Otherwise he has to say that, “Whatever practitioner, whatever they’re doing, demonstration, that’s their choice, you know. Our side, you don’t need to do these things.” If he is honest, what he is doing is right and doesn’t matter how many people are doing demonstration. You will be okay.

He’s doing something wrong. Therefore he’s asking for some help, you know. That’s not right. Anyway, these things, actually what he says is helping us. This is really helping us. We can show the people, you know, what Dalai Lama action is, what he talks. These are the evidence, these are how many bad things they talks. They help us, to support us.

What message would you like to give to the world?

In this world now, it’s 21st Century. It’s… we say that it’s degeneration world. Doesn’t matter what people says in this world. They say good or bad, we have to check our own.

All this problem, all this suffering and everything comes through our ignorance, main thing is ignorance. Sometimes we have to think these things.

And actually, this world, we cannot tell that this world, “they are wrong, they are doing wrong thing, they are doing bad things”. Main thing is that we have to be careful our own side, that our own side is clean and everything is nice. Whatever people says, doesn’t matter. Main thing is we have to do positive things. Positive things and negative things, these two is coming with us and we try to do positive things.

Whole world, maybe if I said these things, maybe talking like Dalai Lama, you know, all the time, compassion and bodhicitta, if there’s nothing, you know, on my side, I’m always trying to do my positive things. Our motivation should be really important, always. Our lineage, we are fighting for our lineage. We’re not fighting for Dorje Shugden.

Dorje Shugden doesn’t matter. He will be okay. Dorje Shugden is okay, what people says, you know. Our lineage, they wanted… main goal is they harm our lineage. They destroy our lineage. That’s the main goal. We have to fight that one. We have to keep that pure. In Shar Gaden, in Serpom, they are the main important one, you know. If these two are not there, we cannot do much. We need these two big monasteries. We need to do really good things but we will try to do it also. We need monks and these things, the monastery, they can hold the lineage. Otherwise, we have in here and there and centres are there… but actually we can handle little bit, not much. With monasteries there, they can handle all the lineage. That’s really important.

This transcript has been edited for clarity and ease of understanding.

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