Bishop John Spong on Religion and God – Very interesting!
Dear friends around the world,
I recently came across this video of Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Spong. It is a clip from an interview hosted by Keith Morrison, a Canadian broadcast journalist. In the clip Bishop Emeritus Spong explains why he thinks that hell does not exists, how religion is used to control people and that the popular Christian notion of God as a parent figure in the sky is false. Bishop Spong inspires me greatly as he is outspoken, he is not afraid to share his views with others even though his views may go against what is normally believed within Christian philosophy.
The Bishop is a man who is well learned and has obviously thought about these issues deeply. Even though he is a religious figure, he is able to see beyond the confines of his own religion and encompass everyone else in his thinking. I like this a lot since he is not bound by his limited perceptions but is able to view things from a different and logical manner. What strikes me is the similarities between what Bishop Spong says and the teachings of the Buddha. By watching Bishop Spong, it is clear to me that he is very true to himself, his religion and even mankind. His kind, generous and honest nature have led him to share his unique and illuminating views with all of us, despite what others may think of him. His views are revealing and provide us with an all-encompassing view of God and the divine in a logical and yet universal manner. Please do read the transcript below and watch the video. They are very short but informative, and will help to open your mind to new ideas of how things exist.
Tsem Rinpoche
Bishop John Shelby Spong
Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Spong
Born in 1931, John Shelby Spong was the Bishop for the American Episcopal Diocese of Newark from 1979 to 2000. Bishop Emeritus Spong became known as a liberal Christian theologian, a religious commentator and author of numerous books on the Christian faith. Through his work he advocates a fundamental shift in Christian belief, away from theism, dogma and traditional doctrines. He graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree in 1952 from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and received his Master of Divinity in 1955 from the Virginia Theological Seminary. He was later conferred the honorary Doctor of Divinity from both Virginia Theological Seminary and Saint Paul’s College, Virginia, as well as an honorary Doctor of Humane Letters from Muhlenberg College in Pennsylvania. During his career helping others through his religious position he served in many churches and parishes across the North Carolina and Virginia states of America. He has also lectured at theological institutions including Harvard Divinity School, has been the recipient of prestigious awards, and has even been a guest on various American TV shows such as The Today Show, Politically Incorrect, Dateline, 60 Minutes and Larry King Live.
Interview with Bishop John Shelby Spong
Bishop John Shelby Spong: I don’t think hell exists. I happen to believe in life after death but I don’t think it has got a thing to do with reward and punishment. Religion is always in the control business and that’s something people don’t really understand. It’s in the guilt-producing control business. And if you have heaven as a place where you’re rewarded for your goodness and hell as a place where you’re punished for your evil then you sort of have control of the population. And so they create this fiery place which has quite literally scared the hell out of a lot of people throughout Christian history and is part of a control tactic.
Keith Morrison: But wait a minute. You’re saying that hell, the idea of a place under the earth or somewhere, where you’re tormented for an eternity is actually an invention of the church?
Bishop John Shelby Spong: Oh yes. I think the church fired its furnaces hotter than anybody else. But I think there is a sense in most religious life of reward and punishment in some form. The church doesn’t like for people to grow up because you can’t control grownups. That’s why we talk about being born again. When you are born again you are still a child. The people don’t need to be born again, they need to grow up. They need to accept responsibility for themselves and for the world.
Keith Morrison: What do you make of the theology which is quite prominent these days in America, which is that there is one guaranteed way not to go to hell, and that is to accept Jesus as your personal saviour?
Bishop John Shelby Spong: I grew up in that tradition. Every church I know claims that we are the true church. They have some ultimate authority. We have the infallible pope, we have the inerrant bible. The idea that the truth of God can be bound in any human system, by any human creed, by any human book. It’s almost beyond imagination for me.
God is not a Christian, God is not a Jew or a Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist. All of those are human systems which human beings have created to help us try and walk into the mystery of God. I honour my tradition. I walk through my tradition. But I don’t believe my tradition defines God. Life is a startling and wondrous experience and eventually I think we are going to discover that God unfolding through the life of our consciousness and our self-consciousness and is not a parent figure up in the sky. But I believe because I am related to something that is not bound by time and space that I will share in whatever God’s eternity is.
Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Spong’s Interview-Must watch!
Or view the video on the server at:
https://video.tsemtulku.com/videos/ArchbishopExplainsHell.mp4
A short commentary
Here is a short commentary on some of the points that Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Spong raised in the above clip from the interview:
- It’s not about rewards and punishments
Within mainstream Christian belief, you are either rewarded for good deeds or punished for committing sins by an all-powerful God. This leads to the obviously polar opposites of heaven and hell when a person dies. But this is not the case in Bishop Spong’s views as he doesn’t even believe in hell. Whereas Christians believe that the judge for our deeds or sins is God, Buddhists do not believe in a creator God. Instead Buddhists believe that what leads to good and bad situations is the karmic results of our actions. We are in control of what happens to us, as opposed to an external deity. If we create good karma we go to the three higher realms, if we commit negative karma we go to the three lower realms. There are many similarities in all religions but I don’t think the Bishop has studied Hinduism or Buddhism to understand the depth of it and their profound doctrines and its many differences from Christianity.
In Christianity your destiny is basically in the hands of an outer deity or God but in Buddhism it is 100% within your own hands. If you were to believe in the God theory, that everything is in God’s hand, then there are many discrepancies in life that are difficult to explain – the sick, the rich, the poor, why some countries suffer from so many natural disasters, etc. It is very difficult to explain these disparities and discrepancies with the belief that God controls everything because ultimately people will end up asking “why is God so cruel?” Some people might think that is because there is a lesson to be learned. What lesson is there to be learned when God created you and you are here to live and your whole life is about suffering? What is there to learn because after that there is no more life? You are gone, you are finished. Buddhism on the other hand says that what you create is what you will experience, in this life and future lives. So this gives you full control, makes you take responsibility and explains a lot of the disparity in the world because everything arises from karma. Therefore karma is fair. Whatever comes to us is a result of what we have done.
- Religion is about control
Religion can be used to control people because you scare them to follow what you say by telling them that hell exists and lure them to comply by telling them that heaven exists. In the past this has scared a lot of people into subservience because they are scared of hell. This is a tactic that has been used in the past to control people.
When you believe in an outer God that controls your destiny and rewards and punishes you, then that can be used by a teacher or minister in a place of worship to end up controlling you. This is because it is this person’s interpretation of what is good and bad that leads you to hell or heaven. In this way there are many Christian denominations and in many of these denominations they have different views of what is correct, what is not correct, what is acceptable and not acceptable. But if you look at it on an ultimate level the fundamental bible is pretty much the same in all Christian sects, it is just that the interpretation comes out different. This can sometimes be very dangerous because extreme interpretation leads to extreme problems. In Buddhism, you are explained what is harmful and what is not. It is the duty of the clergy to explain this to you according to the universal law of karma. If the clergy explains this to you, it is not to control you but for you to have the knowledge to control yourself from harm.
In Buddhism, there is no outer deity that controls you, instead you have to control yourself. The teachings that were put forth by the Buddha are a guideline showing us how to live our life and what creates a happy future or unhappy future. It is not that if you do not follow the guidelines that the Buddha will punish you. So, there is no deity that punished you and rewards you in Buddhism. Therefore, this explains a lot of the disparity in the world. The guidelines as taught by the Buddha is to help us have a happy and non-harmful life. Those who wish to harm, will find the rules ‘controlling’ and those who have no intention to harm will find the guidelines very helpful.
- Born again vs. growing up
Bishop Emeritus Spong argues that the church talks about being born again Christians which means that the person has accepted God. This infers that they are cleansed of their sins and start their lives anew. But Bishop Emeritus Spong states that this a tactic used to control people. Rather people should be grownups and not those who are new born and take responsibility for themselves. Yes, we should be responsible and grow up and accept the consequences if we don’t. Being born again but not changing our attitude will make being born again ineffective.
What the Bishop said about being born again is excellent. There are two reasons that you would be born again. The first is that you were baptised earlier on in your life but sinned tremendously, so you were born again and become pure again, like a child, and are able to start over under the control of God again. The second is that you have never been baptised and now you are born again and come under the control of God. So if you come under the control of God and do good then you are rewarded by going to heaven to be with God. This sounds a little simplistic to me but if you are born again, do good things, change your mind, transform and become a beneficial person to others, than this is okay. God in actuality does not really control anything, but the various churches interpret what God wants and doesn’t want from you. The church is in control. Each church has it’s own interpretations. That’s where the confusion and division comes.
- The divine is beyond labels
Each church or religious authority claim that they are following the only path to the divine or God. This cannot be true because God by definition would be beyond anything that humans can think of. The spiritual path would not be contained within a single book or a single method. The distinction that exists between religions is made by humans. It is good to follow a certain path, and adhere to that path to God or the divine but that does not mean that God or the divine is bound by the limitations of your tradition.
- God is not a parent in the sky
A lot of people think that God is like a parent in the sky looking over everyone. However, according to the Bishop Emeritus God is actually found in our own consciousness and how we live our lives rather than outside of ourselves. Since we are related to everything else which is not bound by the constraints of time and space, we can all share in God’s eternity, whatever that may be. Buddhism believes the Buddha is within us.
I like what the Bishop says very much because he is kind of asking everyone to take control of their lives, take control of their attitude and their actions and their results. His is asking them not to do nothing and leave the situation to God, or even to do something and still leave the situation to God. Because if there is a God, as in the mainstream sense of God – a being that rewards you and gives you things, and also punishes you and takes things away – then everyone who does good things should be rewarded. But we do not see this as being the case.
On the other hand, in Buddhism, when you do negative things or when you do positive things, of course the results will come but it takes some time. This is because for the results to manifest you need to come across a factor to trigger the opening of that karma to experience it. But all actions lead to karma being created and all karma remains dormant until triggered and opened.
So in the Bishop’s case, he is saying that God is not some parent in the sky that punishes and rewards us, and this is very apt. Because when we believe in that, then we leave what happens to us in the hands of an outer control, an outer God, which may not exist in the way that we think it exists. So what he is say is that God is definitely not a being in the sky that controls us or rewards us. It is more that we all have qualities to find God within us. Those qualities are inherent in all humans if we decide to develop them. These qualities are compassion, tolerance, generosity, kindness and a sense of empathy for others. When we live in kindness, we have found the God and Buddha within us.
Therefore, I think that when we study religions and when we practice religion according to our own traditions we should come to the conclusion that God is not in the sky, and that the Buddha is not in the sky, but actually within us. When we develop these qualities we become one with God and everything around us becomes heaven. As long as we do not accept that, then everything we create around us becomes a hell. It helps to follow a particular tradition that leads you to the Buddha or God within us.
For more interesting information:
- Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha, Similarities and Differences
- Jesus was a Buddhist Monk (BBC documentary)
- A Vegetarian Jesus?
- Changing Beliefs
- Discovering Yourself: A Teaching on Karma & Mindstream
- What is God? What is Buddha?
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John Shelby Spong an American bishop of the Episcopal Church. A liberal Christian theologian, religion commentator, and author, spoke bravely of what he thought of the Christian belief away from theism and traditional doctrines. To some Christians, Bishop John Shelby Spong was a heretic. Entrusted with defending the faith, he dismissed notions of the resurrection of Jesus that have been foundations of Christianity for centuries. Bishop Spong came to believe that insistence on an inerrant, literal view of the Bible obscures truth and destroys faith. He was an outspoken leader who believed that faith and worship should be open to marginalised groups. He sermonize a powerful message of love and justice that would resonate in an increasingly secular age. He gain international fame while writing more than two dozen books, appearing on TV shows as well. He was the recipient of three honorary awards to date before his passing. Interesting read .
Thank you Rinpoche for sharing this inspiring article.
The purpose of religion is said to make us feel grown-ups, i.e. to be able to make use of what we have in our minds, like freedom, intelligence, courage and of course sense of responsibility to do what is right and logical, which Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Sponge, had so courageously and explicitly implied! This memior is indeed powerful, enlightening and influencing! Dharma is of course not something to fear, or to judge yourself by, but for inner “comtemplations”. Dharma, as all have been taught, is hope, is light and the way of wisdom! As said, “Dharma is for those who wish for peace and need a way to find it,” which can change our life for the better! But as further said, one thing is for sure in all our lives, wherever we are, “it is that whatever we do eventually it will come back to us, and there is no way to avoid it. In our religion, we call that “Karma”! Yes, the Bishop is sincerely and truly a very well learned and fearless man. He is greatly wise and outspoken; and not afraid to share his view with others when his honest opinion is publicly sought, even though his view may go against what is normally believed otherwise within Christian Philosophy. Thank you so much Rinpoche, for sharing all these with us, it is truly a very good learning session!
I totally agreed what Bishop John Shelby Spong has mentioned in interview and Rinpoche’s comments. Religion has been created to suit different mindset and quality of people. I alwaya believe the Religion has been created with good initiate purpose in very beginning. It is human interpreted the doctrine in wrong way or twisted it purposely for own benefits.
I respected all religions (with their original intention). I have done some religion hoping during my high school time as I was curious about religion after self studying some of Zen and Taoism books borrowed from Penang Chinese Library. With my limited understanding of Zen at that time, the book taught me that Zen is required to guide by a qualified Guru or else it could be very dangerous. Guru has full responsibility to guide the students well or else they might suffer of heavy negative karma as the wrong teachings will influence to many people in future. It is logic to me.
However, when I joined the Bangalow Stay organized by church. I was surprised the Pastor let the followers to discuss and interprete the bible by them self during group Bible study. A lot of strange interpretation came out without much clarification. It boiled down to just believe in God, Heaven and Hell. There is not next life after go to Heaven and no next life after go to Hell. The story just stopped here. I was wondering whether it will be out of population along the time. Hence, there is always different culture and mind set from church to church. Some very aggresive, such as either you are my church brothers or my enemy and some very loving, they just try to help regardless your races and religion. Hence, I settled my mind on Buddhism as everything is well explained to me without any doubt such as attitude, teaching etc.
Hence, I think religion is very sensitive; it can be turned into saver or weapon to control and destroy others for own benefits. We need to follow it carefully or with full awareness.
Thank You Rinpoche for bringing this up for us to understand the sensitivity of the religion.
Dear friends,
This meme is powerful. Who you hang around with and the types of attitude they have is who you will be influenced by many times and who you will become in the future. Look at your friends and the people that always surround you to know who you will become.
Tsem Rinpoche
Most religion will give you 2 choices, you either go to heaven or hell, and this actually to me is no choice. Everyone wants to go heaven but doesn’t want to die. Buddha taught us is not only this 2 choices, you can forever free to chose this two. Read more here in this blog https://www.tsemrinpoche.com to find out the answer. The one I like Buddhism is taking responsibility of your own life and starting by be aware your intention and motivation. And most of us lack of awareness of our motivation and intention included me. That is why the training of mindfulness is important and follow the guidance of a guru will be the perfect one.
I am happy to hear what this Bishop Emeritus John Spong says. It is not the purpose of religion to make us child-like and dependent on someone else. Instead I think it is the purpose of religion to make us grown-up and make the best with what we have, our abilities, resources and environment.
That you Bishop Jong Spong for expressing yourself so clearly and openly. May more people speak up and make the point so clear! We have to take the responsibility ourselves – nobody else can take responsability for ourselves. But we can reach out for help and work together as a team to get something done, in this way everybody wins.
Undeniable..what Bishop John Spong said about religion and God is right BUT only for those who are using religion as their weapon and shield to control people, get what they want and hide behind when things don’t go according to their plans.
It’s annoying to have people keep on creating problems due to their selfishness and greediness which need the others to pay for their “debt” with an extremely high price which is everyone’s piece of peace.
Every single thing on Earth can have different sides, positive and negative, for instance, drug. What’s matter is how we use it, it’s either for the benefit of oneself or for the benefit of all..
Malaysia is multi races country explore with serves religion. Difference religion is needed for difference mind set of people whetther you are Islam, Hindulism or Buddhism and etc. The foundermental of religion is always the same but the tactic use will difference.
Since menkind existence, people set a religion to follow which they believe of ” God ” with guarding and protect them. I am agree what Bishop Emeritus John Spong has spoken. In one way, religion created to control the people mind set. If you are spiritual person. you will take responbility how you act and thinking. Basically you no need a religion to be a better person. People wrong interplate the real religion meaning it create unnecessary matters to control others. At the end creating dishormony in between with difference religion people. Which are happening from the past until now.
I am very comfortable with my current religion which is Buddhism and what I like about Buddhism is logic and promote forever harmony by not hurting others. I found this to be the best and karma will take of oneself if he has been unkind particularly. Here in this article Bishop Emeritus John Spong nailed it.
I would agreed with Bishop Emeritus John Spong talks on Christianity on controlling mind. Recalled back of my elder brother joining church with invitation from his old friend. It’s happened just only few masses attends, he changed completely into a stranger. There were many things he can’t touch claiming it is against his religion. We have brief talk with his old friend whom we know and he was shocked with his change. Since then, he stopped inviting my brother. Thank Buddha, he didn’t baptized. Due to this incident, my mom became very offensive on Christianity or Catholics.
To me, religion is like a guideline or path that lead us to become a better person.
Regarding of this article – Simple and does make sense to me, it’s similar as Rinpoche shared before – https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/buddhas-dharma/what-is-god-what-is-buddha.html
Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Spong gave an very good explanation of it.
It’s really an interesting interview and to learn what Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Spong said here. Many people would have different view and understanding of what a religious is. Personally for me is has to make some sense at some point. Strongly agree with what had been said that religion is about control and one can be so extreme to the extend that I feel it has crosses the line of it true teaching.
I always believe the teaching of religion is about compassion as this is the fundamental core for everyone to be able to live together in harmony and be responsible with our action as we are the one that create the cause of our happiness and unhappiness which I also see that we are the one that create our heaven and hell. No one can be blame but just our action.
I’m glad that I found the way to live my life meaningfully in Buddhist way through my Guru and the guidance total make sense to me which is in service of other. Hope more people will listen and read what Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Spong has said as what we are today and future is all within us.
I always believe that no matter what religion one choose to practice, we ourselves have to transform as all religions only teach us to be a better person, whether there is a heaven/hell or not. When I was young, I’d like to explore other religions to see what it was like but I found them to be uninteresting. I thought that it would be logical and understandable as to what I knew back then, which was just follow what you are taught and obey. But through learning Buddhism, I found that the teachings are logical with reasons. Not just something that will either send you to hell or heaven.
Bishop John Spong is definitely someone who thinks outside the box with logic and reasons. It’s always good to educate instead of ‘shoving’ ideas into people’s brain. This is my first time hearing someone of Christianity talk about something like this, openly. Let’s hope that this article will make more people think and ‘readjust’ their belief.
I have always thought that mankind has always used religions as a means to control the minds of people, probably dating back to when humans were first civilised. People are always fascinated by mysteries, the unknown, occult arts, magic, divinity. Wanting to believe in these, most people follow what they want to hear with promises of gaining powers, material possessions, fulfilment of desires and so on. Most people do not want to improve the self or change for the better to acquire these but want the easy way, that is, to ‘pray’ and hope for the best. Some people would even give up their lives with the promise of being labelled martyrs or be in heaven after they sacrificed their lives. Buddha never promised all these that people yearn for would come true. Buddha instead taught how people should think with logic, debate over the teachings, and put them into practice. In other words, we should work hard to get what we want (happiness) and to get out of where we are (suffering). But most of us failed because we found the processes too long, too tough, taking a lot of our time, too many sacrifices, and the list goes on. We put aside this, thinking we will do so tomorrow. But we forget, tomorrow may never come for us. And there is no guarantee we may have a perfect human body (if we were that fortunate to take a human rebirth) and be reborn in an environment that we may have the freedom to continue on our spiritual journey.
I agree with what the Bishop said, Churches is all about controlling the people, remember many years ago I attended a Sunday Church with my friend, during the session, I just heard the pastor focusing on the few of us in the hall and kept asking Jesus to forgive us and keep pressuring us to baptise and believe in Jesus, take Jesus as our only lord, etc. I felt very uneasy during the whole session and after that day, I never went to church anymore.
Another incident I heard from one of my Buddhist friend, during her college years, she was a Christian, even though her family is not in any religion, but they didn’t stop her from going to church, so she always follow her friends to church every Sunday. She has many questions about religion and our purpose of our life and so on, but she doesn’t seems to get any answer from the church, in fact, she started to know about Buddhism through her boyfriend, she realized that all her doubts, questions are answered thru Buddhism, hence, she decided to stop going to the church and start engaging Buddhism. When her church members heard she stop attending the Sunday session, they formed a so called Rescue group wanting to rescue this young girl who is “falling into hell”, they even went to the extent of going to her house and disturb her parents and family members, until the family members report to police only they stop going. This incident has become a nightmare for my friend and she remembers it until today.
To me, Christians are very extremist, they will do anything and everything to bring people into their community, throughout the years, I have met many Christians who come wanting to convert me from Buddhist to Christian, they even bad mouth Buddhism and said Buddhism is a cult, only Christian is the real religion. To me, there will never a best religion in the world, every religion play their part to guide different people that suits the particular religion.
As one who went to a Christian missionary school with many relatives who are from different Christian denominations, I always had the impression that God “belongs” to the Christians. Along with the Christian concept of God, I also grew up hearing about heaven and hell ie the good go to heaven and the baddies go to hell. Simple concepts. But there were gaps in what I needed answers to such as the meaning of life, life after death, why is there a disparity in this world, etc which I found Buddhism explains it perfectly and logically.
It is truly refreshing to read about Bishop John Spong’s take on religion and God. I see parallels in Buddhism in many of his points and I commend Bishop Spong for being courageous enough to speak up for what he truly believes in although it sounds against the grains of the conventional Christian teachings especially the part about hell being a control tactic and that it does not really exist.
I particularly like this bit where Bishop Spong said “God is not a Christian, God is not a Jew or a Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist. All of those are human systems which human beings have created to help us try and walk into the mystery of God. I honour my tradition. I walk through my tradition. But I don’t believe my tradition defines God.” And this is what I think is the essence of true spirituality, a relationship with a divine being that transcends all labels, human systems and boundaries.
Very wise words from Bishop John Spong. When I was younger, I used to feel that there was no need to follow a particular religion per se because I believed they were all the same at the core. I explored hinduism, christianity, buddhism, taoism and also read about judaism and islam. Although different methods are prescribed, the root texts all teach us to be good, kind, compassionate, forgiving and so on.
So what Bishop John Spong says so articulately is pretty much how I used to feel when I was younger.
Having gained some wisdom (i hope), I have chosen to walk to Buddhist path because it is the best fit for me. Today I am a happy practising Buddhist thanks to having met my root teacher who is everything I am looking for in a spiritual guide.
I’ve also realised that it’s important to have a proven spiritual path to follow because if we just pick and choose from different religions, we may end up walking in circles and not get anywhere. At the same time, I firmly believe that each religion caters to a particular crowd and there is no one religion that can fit everyone.
I hope more listen to these wise words of Bishop John Spong. If more people can understand what he means, there will be fewer wars fought over religion and more peace amongst humankind.
This is indeed a very interesting yet controversial point of view from Bishop Emeritus John, which directly saying there is no God out there in the sky but is within us. In effect, Bishop John is putting the responsibility back to the hand of the individuals instead of God.
For me, I personally tend to accept the theory of responsibility-in-my-hand more than the responsibility-in-others-hand. If I accept the latter theory, then why should I bother with doing anything at all? Just sit there, relax, do nothing because I will be safe anyway. I am more acceptable to the theory that we need to work hard for this life, and we need to work even harder in order to have a next life.
Bishop John Shelby Spong said that “Religion is always in the control business and that’s something people don’t really understand.” I agree ! I believe God is good. Quite similar to the Buddhist belief that there is no external God. God or Buddha can be found or can be developed through the mind or consciousness.
We must learn from Guru the Buddha teaching ,and follow instruction giving by guru to develop qualities like compassion, generosity, , empathy, kindness, etc. to become one with God or Buddha.
Thank you Rinpoche for sharing this interesting atircle.
Bishop John Shelby Spong is very learned and well thought about religions. He mentioned a very valid point – religion is a control tactic. Many people using religion to control other people to listen to them. Some use it for the benefits of others while some use it for the benefit of their own gain and try to eliminate other opponents. The later is very frightening and may cause conflicts or even war. Just like what happening to a lot of war in the world as well as the Shudgen ban is all because of someone or group wants to be in control and want to have the power.
I especially like Bishop Spong thought that God is not a parent in the sky, but he is within us. His thought is very compassion and universal. It is when we cultivate the qualities of God / Buddha, like kindness, tolerance, generosity, kindness and a sense of empathy for others, etc, we are then one with the God/Buddha.
Thank you Rinpoche for sharing Bishop Spong’s view. If only all leaders of religions of have the same view that is for the benefit of others to be a better person, everyone will live in harmony and there will be betterment in the mandkind.
Bishop John is very courageous and taking the road less travelled. He dares to interpret differently than how mainstream christians interpret the bible , their god and religion.
He has many critics, but I feel its impressive for him, to draw his own conclusions based on his learning, contemplation and powers of deductions. Perhaps there are many roads leading up the mountain. I do like that he knows people like to label God as such and such, and he says it that God can neither be categorized as this or that. Perhaps cannot be expressed by human language and human who are subject still to the human conditioning?
This is a very interesting post that Bishop John Spong shared his Christian perspective honestly. Bishop John’s ideas together with the short commentary given by Rinpoche are really opened my mind as his ideas and Buddha teachings have very much similarities. In Buddhism, we believe in karma and full responsible for our actions, our speech and our thoughts. We will create good karma by having good intentions motivating good deeds. Adversely, we will create negative karma when our intentions born of wrong view motivating unwholesome deeds. Bishop John has such similar view of that “everyone to take control of their lives, take control of their attitude and their actions and their results.”
Besides, Bishop John also believes that God is definitely not a being in the sky that controls us or rewards us. It is more that we all have qualities to find God within us. Similarly, buddhists believe the qualities such as compassion, tolerance, generosity, kindness, empathy, acceptance and etc. are inherent in all humans. If we are really practice and develop all these qualities, we have found the God and Buddha within us.
Thanks Rinpoche and the blog team for the wonderful article and make me think more.
I have a cousin in Australia had last stage of cancer, the family asked me what should be done for her, I told them about animal liberation, puja, and reciting mantras, keep the mind calm, accept the suffering, believe in purification. In the end, they told me what I told them is too complicated and troublesome, my cousin accept Jesus (as they are Christians in the hospital converting patients’ beliefs), the people told her just accept Jesus, and she will go to heaven. So that was what she did before she passed away, and the family believes that she has gone to heaven.
Personally I don’t think by just believe in something, you would be liberated from all the pains forever, if it is so, why do people who are still alive who believe in God, they still suffer? People who suffer in a lot of pains such as sickness, abuse, bully, discrimination etc. even they believe in God, the sufferings didn’t disappear? When someone pass away, because we can’t see them suffer anymore, by believe in God, they no longer suffer? I don’t think this is logic at all.
I think this kind of “Believe in God, you go to heaven; if you don’t, you go to hell.” theory works because people choose quick fix or short cut over recognizing the root of the problems and solutions for it.
I don’t think Christianity originally preaches this short cut theory, I respect that Christianity is a deep and profound teachings that does liberate people from sufferings.
For me I think the point is to be responsible to our own actions and to recognize the sufferings, not just answer everything with “God”, and don’t need to do anything. This is how Buddhism more practical than Christianity in this case.
Thank you.
Bishop John Shelby Spong’s thoughts on God are quite similar to the Buddhist belief that there is no external God. Buddhists believe in the Buddha nature, that all beings have the seed of enlightenment within them which can be activated. Thus, God or Buddha can be found or can be developed through the mind or consciousness. As H.E. Tsem Rinpoche said, it is a matter of following a tradition that leads to the Buddha or God within us. We need to develop qualities like compassion, tolerance, generosity, kindness, empathy, etc. to become one with God or Buddha.
The concept of being condemned to hell or rewarded with access to heaven for all eternity at the sole discretion of God and we have no say in it at all was something that never sat well with me. Especially when the scriptures point to the God in question as being temperamental, selective and even consistently contradicts himself. For example, if God is indeed love itself, then why would he create hell to punish those whom he gave up on? Why would he discriminate between people and subject some to so much suffering and allow some to only have the best in life? Why is there a limit to his compassion in that he would intentionally abandon and forsake those who displeases him and for all eternity at that?
Upon further digging, I began to see that the problem lies more on the interpretation of God and God’s will. I discovered that for every religion that premised upon a creator/God, (i) there are always different schools of thoughts within each of them and (ii) each religion would be defined by the mainstream interpretation. This article is a classic example illustrating both points.
Thankfully I reconnected with Dharma where logic and reasoning forms the basis for one to develop faith and there is significantly less ambiguity with the core teachings. Admittedly, the absence of the inconsistencies and arbitrariness necessary and inherent in the belief of a creator/God was a huge pull factor for me towards Dharma.
Personally, I like Bishop Emeritus John Shelby Spong’s conclusion which allows for more tolerance and harmony;
“God is not a Christian, God is not a Jew or a Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist. All of those are human systems which human beings have created to help us try and walk into the mystery of God. I honour my tradition. I walk through my tradition. But I don’t believe my tradition defines God. Life is a startling and wondrous experience and eventually I think we are going to discover that God unfolding through the life of our consciousness and our self-consciousness and is not a parent figure up in the sky. But I believe because I am related to something that is not bound by time and space that I will share in whatever God’s eternity is.”
Thank you for such an interesting sharing.
I believe God is good. The benefit depends on how people carried it out. What people chose to believe and not believe. What’s workable what’s not. Stories have been changed in order to control people’s mind at the same time make it easy for others to follow. People tend to take advantage of part of pieces in the bible and everybody believe in it in their own interpretation.
Well people will choose the easy way out! Who wants to work hard to purify karma compare to just believe in Jesus and your sin just disappeared and you are pure again? Why put all responsibilities to God?
Hence to preserve and protect the pure lineage is very important. When the pure teachings were containmenated, everything can twist and turned by people. When Dorje Shugden ban started, all practitioners suddenly became demon worshippers also became Chinese spy. What can this happened over night? If no body speak up, many years later it became something we chose to accept. Why chose to be abused and being wronged？
Thank you Your Eminence for sharing this “controversial, but really insightful” article from Bishop Emeritus Spong. I believe he is a rational, logical and a man with a mind able to critique many spiritual phenomena in a humanistic and holistic way.
Religions have always been presented ass having heaven and hell. If you believe in my “god” then, you have earned your right to go to “heaven”. If you reject my dogma, then you have also rightfully earned your one way ticket to “hell”. I find this debate and preaching (till this present day) rather condescending and it make sense that the whole organization just wants to control others so that they “kow tow” to overall organization’s agenda. The agenda, normally, is to obtain unending finances to build this and build that. And the best part is, the bigger your contribution, the higher and faster one goes on purgatory.
I believe there are many other Bishop Emeritus Spong out there in the US , maybe they are not so prominently featured in the mainstream media as they are often perceived and anti-establishment and anti-church.
This article certainly demonstrates that there is a Buddha in all of us – just need that bit of trigger to cause the karma to manifest and the Buddha nature in us will henceforth materialize.
Thank you Your Eminence for this beautiful article.
Humbly yours,
Lum Kok Luen
Thank you Rinpoche for sharing.
Is great that Bishop John Spong shared his thoughts.
I was once a Christian but never been baptised .Went to church and asked for emptiness. Sound funny to think of it.
I believed all are because individual or human misinterpretation and like JP mentioned some divisions of Christianity that claim that all other religions are manifestations of the devil but all these are because of human giving wrong view or wrong thoughts. Is very subject to individual understanding. There are nothing wrong with God’s,Buddha or Deity. Is human itself.
Because Christianity is simplified where it doesn’t explained in detail unlike Buddhism.
Born again, there’s life after death and they have bardo stage but it does not mention in details like Buddhism where there are 49 days and how, what will we experience.
All religion are good .The only thing is we the sentient beings that are confuse.
It is refreshing to listen to the Bishop Emeritus speak of his deep insight on the belief system of his faith. Many of my friends and relatives are in some form of Christianity. I noticed that there are some divisions of Christianity that claim that all other religions are manifestations of the devil. So if we don’t accept Christ and God, we are to parish in Hell. It is their duty to save us from Hell.
I have never bought this idea that it’s so easy to NOT go to Hell just by accepting Christ and God. If God created the Universe and is all so powerful, why not just remove Satan and then everyone can live in peace? Why so much complications and give us the power of choice and so on and so forth? Why complicate matters when if we can resolve it? Why waste so much time? What’s the purpose of all these games in the name of wanting us to learn life lessons? If we are God’s children, why not make us emanations of God so that everyone is happy and live in Heaven? Why bother with all these drama? My Christian friends would reply that God has his grand plans and they are beyond us to understand. So my question to them would be, “If God is so difficult to understand, what makes you so sure that you have understood God correctly in the first place?”. Sorry to say, I find their train of thought very illogical and simplistic.
As Rinpoche told me when I first joined Kechara. Try to master being COMPASSIONATE to the level of people like Mother Theresa, Gandhi, and so on. Then try to figure out what God is. I totally agree to this advice. IF we don’t eat, breathe, and think compassionately all the time as a spiritual practitioner first, we are not ready to understand the deeper meaning of life.
Very interesting article……gave me a clear defination and understanding of God and religion.I agree with Bishop John Spong….if we all have qualities of love, compassion. caring ,tolerance, generosity, kindness and a sense of empathy to benefits others, God or Buddha will be within us. I can understand much better of the insight.
I admired Bishop John Spong for his courage to speak up and explained to others about what he thought .Do hope more people will open their minds and judge for themselves the truth of it based on logic thinking and teachings. I am glad ,i am on the right path.
Thank you Rinpoche for sharing these interesting post.
Bishop John Spong’s very radical ideas for a Christian are not so radical when we hold them in the light of the Buddha’s Dharma. His not believing in a hell, but in an afterlife accords with Buddhism’s belief in afterlives. The belief in one going to hell or heaven after this life is too simplistic. It does not explain disparities that exist between people and countries. It does not justify why one should go to hell or heaven as a form of punishment or reward.Furthermore, it appears to be more a man-made system of control where an external God is the judge.What’s more , the God is a creation of a conceptional mind. In reality, I agree with the Bishop that God cannot be an external parental figure high up in the sky.
Rather God, as the Bishop says, “unfolds through the life of our consciousness and our self-consciousness”, in other words “within us”, like the Buddha potential within us, as we manifest compassion and kindness.
Yes, as the Bishop says, so does Buddha – we take responsibility for our actions and their consequences.(We don’t need to be born again . We need to grow up and take responsibility for our actions and reactions).We control our fates via karma ( the law of cause and effect ). We determine our happiness and suffering through our non harming or harming actions and our actions to benefit others.
Yes, the Bishop’s view of an afterlife and his perception of hell as a nonentity accords with the Buddha’s view. The Bishop in his sincere devotion to the Divine has touched the Truth and Reality.
To me, the single largest contradiction found in many religions and their implementation (by men) is the way how one’s action and the consequences are governed and judged by a someone. This someone has the power to grant love, good fortune, take away all the sins and also punish anyone who has committed bad deeds; all in ONE lifetime.
It presents a huge unanswerable question, especially for people who met with huge misfortune, and for people who suffered from birth, who are born poor, born sick or handicapped, etc. Are they the abandoned and forgotten children and thus have to go through this single ONE lifetime with great pain and anguish?
It is, thereby, easier to reconcile the disparity in life when we understand the Law of Cause and Effect. When we do a particular action, we should expect a certain result. Even though we cannot determine the time frame of which the outcome will arrive, we can rest assured that it will. As the Law of Cause and Effect works in parallel with reincarnation, we can expect the result to continue or take place in the next life, or thereon.
Therefore, we can explain the disparity of birth. And in a big way, Law of Cause and Effect encourages everyone to take responsibility for their own action, because no one, not even the special someone, can remove our sins for us. The only person who can right our wrong and is ourselves.
Law of Cause and Effect and Reincarnation are essential teachings in Buddhism, which attracted me to this religion, as they provide me with good, solid answers to many of my questions about life.
Thank you, Rinpoche, for this sharing.
Having studied the roots of Christianity in an attempt to understand the culture around me, it became quite apparent that the church was created to gain control of the masses of people by the Roman empire. Jesus had turned their world upside down and now all could be conquered with love, literally. This new knowledge of personal power threatened the very existence of government/empire and the church was created in the most fundamental least metaphysical, least empowering way possible, hence the bible. Since then it has branched out into a myriad of different sects of Christianity, a few somewhat transcendent but most still dis-empowering to the seeker of God and all things good.
I’d like to see the Christian countries eventually understand that Jesus completely embraced the reality of reincarnation and he never ever created all these different churches claiming exclusivity and the “only” right path. His message was simple but profound beyond measure.
Martin Luther King Jr studied went to India to study non-violent protest under Gandhi, came back and changed the world, a little known fact I love to share with most all Christians I meet. He was a great inspiration to me, giving me the idea that I was free to study Buddhism to my hearts content and not stay within the confines of the Christian church. I still love Jesus for his message and great works, and feel he is very happy to see me practicing and fully embracing Tibetan Buddhism.
I believe that religion should be based on logical thinking and teaching instead of blind faith and controls. From the history, many of the politician uses religion to achieved personal agenda. I have chosen Buddhism because the teachings are based on logic, Karma is based on logic. Buddhism teaching us to live a harmonious happy life. I would never agree with some religion who glorify killing heretic as an honor and gateway to their heaven. I believe that religion embraces all differences, and not seek conversion as their ultimate goals, conversion only shows that they are lack of confidence and less tolerance.
Having been to a Christian missionary school, I had always wondered why I never got baptised as a Christian. I have always thought that somehow or other being a child of God was controlling and somehow did fit into my logical thinking even though I enjoyed Bible studies classes that were conducted in my school.
As such this article is indeed very interesting and after so many are the answers to why I was never baptised.